Thoughts on if these Iscar inserts are fake?
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  1. #1
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    Default Thoughts on if these Iscar inserts are fake?

    I decided to take a chance and try buying some inserts on eBay for my home shop. I have heard of fake inserts on there, so I specifically looked for a US seller (this one was TX) with a lot of positive feedback selling inserts (99.9% positive with many reviews relating to inserts) selling name brand, sealed inserts. Ended up ordering a sealed box of Iscar CCMT 3-1-SM IC907 inserts and a sealed box of Iscar CCMT 3-2-SM IC907 inserts at the same time from the same seller. Had I not ordered both of these I probably would not have noticed that although the tops of the back packaging look correct with individual information for each type of insert, everything from the material designation down matches exactly between the two different inserts including the bar code which judging from what I can find online is the bar code for the CCMT 3-1-SM inserts - 05504773. The bar code for the CCMT 3-2-SM inserts should be 05504774 from what I can find. This leads me to believe that the inserts are fake, but I am looking for an opinion from someone that may be more knowledgeable. Thank you for your help!

    iscar-inserts-01.jpg

    iscar-inserts-02.jpg

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    I bought many shop things off ebay, all were great bargins. One day I was going to order some very expensive Sandvik inserts when I got the idea to check on ebay first. Wow, I found the inserts for one fifth the price! I think they were also from a Texas seller. I ordered about 10 boxes and congratulated myself on being so smart. When they arrived I loaded them in the cutter and hit cycle start. That's when I realized I had been snookered. They made so much noise and vibration a screw actually broke off in the cutter and destroyed it. This misadventure cost me about $1000.00 with the cost of the inserts and destroyed cutter. The inserts and packaging looked perfect and they were from a US seller but they were clearly chi-com counterfeits. Lesson learned.

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    I buy inserts all the time on E-bay, I haven't been burned yet. I think the key is to look what the seller is selling. The red flag to me would be someone selling a high volume of the exact same thing. A lot of stuff I have bought is less than a full box or NOS that is no longer current. I like to see guys that are selling a wide range of tooling, running the gamut. Like they are buying lots at auctions from shops that have closed. I used to get lots of great deals when E-bay was in it's infancy right when I was venturing out on my own. I am pretty sure a lot of things I bought over 20 years ago walked out of someone's day job in their lunch box.

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    What is the sellers feedback like? Auctions I've attended, new full box inserts don't sell for cheap unless they are for obsolete holders. Report the seller, demand a refund. Might even send an email to Iscar about them. Is the same seller using Amazon as well?

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    What is your total outlay for these ?

    You've already bought them, only thing to doo is try them.

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    If you find a seller with one box of obscure inserts from time to time they're probably real (and stolen from work.) If you find a seller that's sold hundreds of the same boxes of inserts for half of the wholesale price, where do you imagine they're getting them? The secret Iscar factory that sells real products for a tenth their value?

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    Do they work?
    You went to the black market and do not want to purchase through the real channel where people make a living.
    If they work all is good. If they are not so great you spent not a lot of money so maybe still a good deal.
    What is the life of counterfeit carbide inserts vs the real thing when a worry?
    Bob

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    Probably fakes as the bar codes seem wrong and ebay/aliexpress is flooded with this exaxt insert model fakes
    https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_fro...ic907&_sacat=0

    Some of the more "clever" sellers hide the Iscar brand ie:
    10pcs CCMT09T304 SM IC907 CCMT3 1 SM IC907 Milling blade insert FOR steel-in Power Tool Accessories from Tools on AliExpress - 11.11_Double 11_Singles' Day

    Did you buy yours from this seller by a change?
    10 new ISCAR CCMT 3-1-SM / CCMT09T304-SM, Grade IC907 Carbide Inserts Israel 123456784 | eBay

    From comments:
    Great looking, but non-performer

    I compared these against REAL Iscar inserts of the same grade and everything. Where the Iscar inserts lasted 3-4 parts per corner, these inserts lasted 1/2 a part, and that was pushing it. They are carbide, but it must be of such a low quality carbide that it's just not worth it to buy these. Maybe if you're running a really soft mild steel, or something like that, would these be a good bargain. Otherwise, stick to the real Iscar inserts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post
    Do they work?
    You went to the black market and do not want to purchase through the real channel where people make a living.
    If they work all is good. If they are not so great you spent not a lot of money so maybe still a good deal.
    What is the life of counterfeit carbide inserts vs the real thing when a worry?
    Bob
    Yup, the only place I know of (I'm sure there are others) is Hemly, which buy NOS
    from machine shops dusty shelves, and (if less than a full box) repackage.

    They have plain white insert boxes.

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    The first clue I look for is if the box says 'Oscar', I know they're fake.

    As for the 'you deserve to get screwed because you didn't buy them from a 'normal and real' seller who screws you when you buy them....it's pretty bad when a person making a good faith effort to save money is criticized for it. The concept that the ONLY way to do anything is to bend over and let a 'Professional' do it is one I don't subscribe to. That goes for mechanics, plumbers, electricians, AC repair guys, and carbide sellers alike.

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    TONS of fakes. I don’t trust ANY Mitsubishi inserts on eBay, including some from new, small USA sellers. There are many that have a seal hologram. That means nothing.
    If they don’t supply pictures of a single insert showing the printed model/grade/logo as the real ones have, don’t buy it.
    Also, notice the coating and shape; many of them don’t have the coating in the hole, when the real ones do. Shape details (chip breaker pattern) will often be a super common one, all over Alibaba images, that doesn’t match the factory pattern of that exact part # insert.
    Bar codes are often fuzzy in the Mitsubishi’s, also.

    I have told sellers the product was a fake, and they immediately relisted them as generic with origin being China in the specs. These are the small generic details above the listing description. Title still including the copied brand name. One seller told me “sorry, but what expect for this low price!” And in all honesty, she was right.

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    Want free inserts for hobby shop? order brand name inserts from chinabay and claim them as fakes.
    Serves right those chinese copycats.

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    Thank you everyone for the replies. I am posing the question because I have not opened the insert boxes themselves yet and can return them through eBay if they are fake. Wanted to take that option if it looks like these are not legit, which because of the bar codes, I believe they are probably not.

    MattiJ - You found the right listing. That is the seller that I bought them from. 99.9% positive feedback spanning the gammut on tools and tooling. This is why I assumed he must be buying lots from businesses and reselling.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GregSY View Post
    The first clue I look for is if the box says 'Oscar', I know they're fake.

    As for the 'you deserve to get screwed because you didn't buy them from a 'normal and real' seller who screws you when you buy them....it's pretty bad when a person making a good faith effort to save money is criticized for it. The concept that the ONLY way to do anything is to bend over and let a 'Professional' do it is one I don't subscribe to. That goes for mechanics, plumbers, electricians, AC repair guys, and carbide sellers alike.
    And you shouldn't. That line of thinking is the antithesis of this website.

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    To make matters more confusing allow me to add another situation. I used to work at a Taiwanese company years ago. They always negotiated to be able to sell overruns of things they were manufacturing.

    So what they would do was run two shifts of 'approved' parts and then a third shift of 'overruns'.

    The overruns where sold for vastly less but were still real parts. They would alter the packaging a bit and make sure they didn't compete with the parent parts channels and get slapped down. QC wasn't as good as you might imagine.

    So these cheapo eBay inserts are competing with a major tooling companies salesman who won't even return my calls if I don't buy 10 packs of something. I wouldn't expect them to see those as a threat and shut them down. Not until they wonder why the phone has stopped ringing.

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    I would like everyone's thoughts on the seller's explanation of the misprinted labels.

    Through eBay I requested a refund and explained my reasoning for believing that the inserts may be fake. The seller responded almost immediately accepting the return with the following message.

    Some of these packs of inserts we received due to label errors or printing mistakes from the manufacturer and they dump them onto us as they cannot sell them to their distributors which is why sometimes you will see various issues, however no issue will ever result due to the product itself, they typically scrap those.

    Your more than welcome to return the item.


    Any thoughts on if you think Iscar has label printing mistakes like this? Seems hard for me to believe because I would think that the labels are a pre-made file that just gets run every so often, but maybe I'm wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nemesis View Post
    I would like everyone's thoughts on the seller's explanation of the misprinted labels.

    Through eBay I requested a refund and explained my reasoning for believing that the inserts may be fake. The seller responded almost immediately accepting the return with the following message.

    Some of these packs of inserts we received due to label errors or printing mistakes from the manufacturer and they dump them onto us as they cannot sell them to their distributors which is why sometimes you will see various issues, however no issue will ever result due to the product itself, they typically scrap those.

    Your more than welcome to return the item.


    Any thoughts on if you think Iscar has label printing mistakes like this? Seems hard for me to believe because I would think that the labels are a pre-made file that just gets run every so often, but maybe I'm wrong.
    I went to further dig the selection the seller has and look what I found
    10 new MITSUBISHI CCMT21.51 CCMT060204, Grade VP15TF Carbide Inserts | eBay

    Craptastic Mitsubishi inserts with box full of typos, you can find same typoed boxes also from chinese sellers! (sometimes as little as 4usd per box)
    m/mh and mm/tev, what the f*ing units are those?
    Some of the chinese sellers admit openly that "not genuine Mitsubishi, made in china 60% orginal quality"

    Return the inserts for refund if you want easy way, claim counterfeit product to ebay, report to Iscar and burn the seller in hell if you ask me..

    Zimi-HK is example of one seller who openly admits that the inserts are not genuine
    20pcs CCMT060204 US735 CCMT21.51 (Mitsubishi 50%-70%)for steel / stainless steel | eBay

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  22. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nemesis View Post
    I would like everyone's thoughts on the seller's explanation of the misprinted labels.

    Through eBay I requested a refund and explained my reasoning for believing that the inserts may be fake. The seller responded almost immediately accepting the return with the following message.

    Some of these packs of inserts we received due to label errors or printing mistakes from the manufacturer and they dump them onto us as they cannot sell them to their distributors which is why sometimes you will see various issues, however no issue will ever result due to the product itself, they typically scrap those.

    Your more than welcome to return the item.


    Any thoughts on if you think Iscar has label printing mistakes like this? Seems hard for me to believe because I would think that the labels are a pre-made file that just gets run every so often, but maybe I'm wrong.
    You were expecting a declaration of guilt ?

    FWIW the inserts may be just fine for your application.

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    Thanks MattiJ, really appreciate your help. I'll send them back today. Have a great day!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nemesis View Post
    Any thoughts on if you think Iscar has label printing mistakes like this? Seems hard for me to believe because I would think that the labels are a pre-made file that just gets run every so often, but maybe I'm wrong.
    I find it hard to imaging Iscar "dumping" mislabeled product into the open market. It's easier to believe they did get misprinted and the misprinted label made it all the way to packaging, then someone snuck them out the back door when they were discovered and slated for destruction. But it's even easier to believe that they are just counterfeit.

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