Thoughts on if these Iscar inserts are fake? - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    Contact Iscar and forward the photos with the explanation of mislabeling. I think you will quickly find out that they will not support what you have been told.

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    I would doubt anything is stolen from the Iscar factory ,cause robots generally dont have legs,or need money to pay gambling debts.

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    I am starting to think the amount of fake inserts on eBay is staggering. I have been doing some searching trying to find some legitimate ones. From what I can tell, the "Catalog #" on Iscar's website refers to the UPC Code on the insert box minus the leading zero. Using this I am finding that every set I verify are close, but have discrepancies in being not exactly the right UPC Code or having materials listed wrong etc. An example:

    eBay listing for pack of CCMT IC907 Iscar inserts with genuine looking hologram seal:
    Iscar CCMT09T304-SM 32.51 IC907 carbide inserts 10 pcs | eBay

    Iscar website showing that the UPC Code is actually referencing CNMG IC907 inserts:
    ISCAR Cutting Tools - Metal Working Tools - CNMG/CNGG-TF : 5598518 - CNMG 120408-TF

    Buyer beware I guess.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nemesis View Post
    I am starting to think the amount of fake inserts on eBay is staggering. I have been doing some searching trying to find some legitimate ones. From what I can tell, the "Catalog #" on Iscar's website refers to the UPC Code on the insert box minus the leading zero. Using this I am finding that every set I verify are close, but have discrepancies in being not exactly the right UPC Code or having materials listed wrong etc. An example:
    Yep. Lots of counterfeits, disappointing to see that ebay is not doing much about it. Or manufacturers (foil hat people could say that lots of fakes are actually benefit for manufacturers that are trying to force official supply channel and strict pricing)

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  7. #25
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    Last time i bought iscar inserts it came with hologram sticker.
    iscarholo.jpg

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    Just a word bout mistakes in printing, labels or otherwise, from a guy who spent 30 years in the printing industry before moving on and becoming a machinist. Mistakes happen all the time.

    I mostly worked in pre-press which is usually just a door or two away from the press room where the stuff gets printed. We all heard horror stories, and I've seen it in the flesh myself, multiple pallets of full color printing fresh off the press sitting there. Someone walks up and without much thinking goes, "hey... the word in that heading is spelled wrong." Sure as shit. And don't forget that by this time at least 3-5 different people from different departments have signed off on it. The final one being the customer standing there in the press room signing off on the first good sheet. I won't even get into the arguments about who pays.

    I guess my point is that don't be surprised if a label has printing errors. Was it past off by the real manufacturer? How did they handle the thousands of dollars of spoiled printing they signed off on? It would be a crap shoot to know for sure what person in charge of what company decided what to do about it. Even good people can become fallible when the pressure is on. Just sayin...

    Dave

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yan_b View Post
    Last time i bought iscar inserts it came with hologram sticker.
    iscarholo.jpg
    When did this start?

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    no comment on the fake issue, but on the mislabelling one. These aren't candy bars with the wrong expiry date on them, they're $20-30+ inserts. I'd be really surprised if a company like Iscar wouldn't pay some fresh out of school grot to tip them out of the mislabelled box and slap a new label on them for 8 or 9h a day. Or maybe as a company they don't care much about profit margins?

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  14. #29
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    I bought a bunch of these inserts for my Iscar facemills. I sold some of the batch as I bought 20 packs from a wholesaler. On 1018/1045 I did not notice much a difference. However a customer that bought some from me had terrible results. I showed them to my Iscar rep and he thought they looked legit. Another customer sent me pictures of one from under a microscope, the difference was startling.

    I pretty much any inserts, like batteries, on eBay or amazon are fake.

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  16. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yan_b View Post
    Last time i bought iscar inserts it came with hologram sticker.
    iscarholo.jpg
    Lots of fakes are sealed with hologram stickers. Good that yours have the number printed on each insert, though.

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    What is strange is that people will see these 10-20 cents on the dollar prices and buy it.
    How can any sane person think these deals are legit?
    But if you pay 10 to 20% of the price and it lasts 25% of the life you have won.

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    I have no doubts those are fakes from the printing errors. But there are also closeouts, liquidations, plant auctions etc that can result in heavily discounted goods that can wind up on bay. Ya pay yer money and takes yer chances.

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    The reason given by the vendor that these get sold off at scrap prices by Iscar due to a bad label makes no sense.
    I've seen many big end carbide places puck up the labels, they just repackage the parts.
    Now at auctions you can buy new carbide tooling at just over $6.00 per pound. So there is that avenue.
    Smaller vendors with not any assortment and low prices are likely taken home from work and are likely to be the real thing. (but you are buying from a thief)

    The thing is with fake inserts and a non-production user is that it might not be a bad deal. You are buying some generic (maybe not the best) carbide with a generic coating.
    Even the crap stuff will likely will outrun any HSS.
    Bob

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    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post
    Even the crap stuff will likely will outrun any HSS.
    Ad the guy who started the thread is probably running them in a South Bend

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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    Ad the guy who started the thread is probably running them in a South Bend
    Actually a 10" Rockwell because my Monarch 12CK is in storage while we are prepping to move. How does that change anything regarding these being fake inserts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nemesis View Post
    ...... How does that change anything regarding these being fake inserts.
    Because they may work just fine for you as you can't push the tool to it's limits as a big production shop would.
    There is a good chance that buying the more expensive would give you no more satisfaction.
    The seller said you can return them so I'd go ahead if a fear. I'd just use them. Heck I'll run Harbor Freight carbide and I make inserts.

    Then when you buy others is this the right carbide grade or edge prep for your use? (not to mention coatings)
    Those two things can mean 5-10 times the tool life or sudden death even if real and from the biggest. Pick the wrong one and you lose.
    You have managed to nail down barcodes. Ready to go down the long and deep rabbit hole of carbide grades and why fakes are different but workable?
    I sense that you are just buying carbide and think it is all the same if it is name brand. ..... NO.
    You can spend your entire life trying to understand the nuances and how any carbide/coating/prep works in applications.
    Low buck cheap carbide is still carbide.

    What I love is the customer who want's to cut aluminum, dead soft steel and 40-50 hard 4140 with the same insert.
    Assuming these are fakes I wonder if the real will work better for you.

    Do not get me wrong, I do so much hate this side of the market and spit blood at it but it is there and it surely works for some.
    Bob

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    Bob, thank you for the detailed answer. To explain where I'm coming from, I completely understand that having the right tool for the job makes all of the difference in the world and that this especially holds true when you are talking about the endless array of inserts, grades, coatings, etc. I have been reading extensively on the subject. That being said, at some point you need to take your best guess and try one to see how it works for you and your setup. For this reason I wanted a name brand insert with known specifics and strong quality control so that I could build a baseline. With a fake insert I have no way to know what I really got. Say it does happen to work well. How do I repeat an order and get the exact same insert again?

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    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post
    What is strange is that people will see these 10-20 cents on the dollar prices and buy it.
    How can any sane person think these deals are legit?
    But if you pay 10 to 20% of the price and it lasts 25% of the life you have won.
    Why?
    Because with some products (not necessarily inserts and not every market) there is 80% profit on the price and even smallest business customer gets 70% discount on list prices.
    Local hydraulic fitting store gives me usually 70% discount even if I'm just lowly walk-in customer that purchases 100usd worth of fittings at a time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nemesis View Post
    I completely understand that having the right tool for the job makes all of the difference in the world ...
    Actually, no. For a production shop trying to maximize its profits, these things matter. For a guy making onesy-twosey parts for a hobby, it makes zero zip none nada no difference whatsoever. If you know how to run a lathe, you can use high speed steel just as efectively as carbide, fake or real. Carbide is a little nicer in some ways but in the end, it is not something you need.

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    Not inserts but a couple of years back, I bought what I thought were a dozen LM338K Texas Instruments voltage regulator units from a seller on eBay. The listing said "shipped from US". The price was good a $1.00 apiece but when I tried to use one in a circuit, it never worked. I cut it apart only to discover that the case was empty. Also I noticed that the markings on the case were stamped in Ink instead of laser etched.

    I did get a refund through eBay but it taught me a lesson.


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