Time to Buy a New Lathe, !4-18in x 40. Must weigh at least 3000lbs

After spending the last three days not making money and fixing my old used lathe, I'm fed up enough to buy something new. Bought this JFMT 360 six years ago for $1200ish, its a wreck. There is .018 measured wear on the leading way on the cross slide, so when making a heavy cut the whole cross slide deflects and makes the tool dive. Parting is a hell of a lot of fun with that, pucker up. I have made my money and more with it so its time for someone else to buy it and get it out of my shop.

I am looking for a manual machine, 14-18in swing. Haven't really run into a situation where I needed more than a 40in C-C in the time I have been using my lathe. My current machine weighs 2700lbs. The new machine must weight at least 3000 preferably more. Currently looking at the following:

Acer 17x40s
ACER Group Homepage - Engine Lathes [E-lathe 1740G/1760G/1780G]
ACER Group Homepage - Engine Lathes [Dynamic-1740G TO 1780G]

Acra
https://acramachinery.com/product/1640te-precision-gap-bed-engine-lathe-12speed/
https://acramachinery.com/product/1740ace-precision-gap-bed-engine-lathe/

Webb
MA-1800 series | Webb Machinery


Whacheon:
https://whacheon.com/downloads/HL-460_18inch.pdf

Not sure whats up with the spelling, but pretty sure these are the same machines:
http://www.hwacheon.com/en/product/product_machine1.do?strCode1=30001&strCode2=&intPrdSeq=10250&tab=

Doubt I can afford the last two, but will investigate pricing.

Not ready to step up to CNC, nor do I think that I need a CNC yet as most of my parts are 1 off, repair parts, simple enough to be made efficiently on a manual machine, and I have a friend with a TL2 for productionish type projects.

I run my own race car/fabrication shop, so the need to walk over and make something, happens pretty much every day. I'm figuring I'm going to have to spend $15-20k to get something nice.

Not going to waste my time dealing with the current used market. "Old American" iron is over priced and usually so worn out I may as well keep what I have. The used machinery dealers remind me of used car salesmen and just sell garbage for silly money. If I am paying silly money, at least I get something new, not crashed, not worn out, not rotted, etc. Plus it has a warranty. The used guys just want your money so they can move on to the next sucker. (maybe I am jaded dealing with the machines I have looked at and the dealers I have talked to in the past)

The companies above seem to have been doing this for at least 30+ years, there is legacy support, parts are available, etc. (not that I expect to need parts on a new machine)

Anyone in the Southeast have or used these machines? Can I come test drive it? Broken one lately? Major complaints?

Looks like the tail stock spindle on all but the Whacheons is a bit on the small side. My current one is 68mm (I think). Spindle through holes appear a bit small, but 2.125in would be nice at least.

Looks like D1-6 is common and easy to support for chucks. Guess straight gear drive is better than the odd inverter drives, but no Constant surface speed support is a bummer. (not sure it matters). Some have no indication of pressure fed oiling, but surely that isn't the case for the head stock (saddle I assume is splash with a pump to feed the ways and cross slide.

Chip tray doesn't seem removable, is that a big hassle? I can remove mine currently, but usually just shovel it out. 1800rpm seems reasonable, I rarely use the 2000rpm on my current machine. I am running insert tooling currently and will transfer that to the new machine.

Thoughts? I'm sure I should be going CNC, but even a TL2 is going to be 35k landed on the floor and fully functional. Not sure I'm ready to buy a used CNC lathe. Probably will start with a used CNC mill over the next few years though. My Index 745 still gets the job done.

Couple years back a Hwacheon was about 30k.

Check with Greer in So Cal. He's usually got some used machines in stock, and seems to be pretty picky about what he's willing to resell.

I really like the new Leblonde lathes. They have everything going for them including a D1-6 spindle and great factory support.

I have a Acra 1540TE. Very robust machine. I've installed a 3 axis DRO and custom VFD control system.

Brett W said:

I'm sure I should be going CNC,..

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Bizness hat on, now. Could was it actually depends a good deal on your age and how much longer you expect to be doin' watcher doin', or similar, but better and faster.

If I was even a mere 35 years younger, I'd want a "teach in" CNC/manual hybrid for a lathe, similar, but settle for "pure" CNC for a mill-type "machining center".

Cazeneueve has a good factory video. I'm not selling them - they are far from the only maker. But the video is worth learning from:

Small - the Optica:

YouTube


Larger - the Optimax:

YouTube

And that is just the "French example".

I think Okuma uses the same or similar Siemens electronics?

LeBlond-Makino might have something similar?

Others?

This stuff is no longer "new". Use goods are out there, some brand or another.

TIME, y'see has always gotten scarcer, more expensive .. and seems to be doing so faster, at least "recently", after a long stagnant period... than cost of Iron has gone up.

The hybrid manual/CNC ability to store a large number of tasks on-board, and store a basically unlimited number, off-machine, "re-uses" YOUR time - or selected PORTIONS of it - from every job you do.

In a way, it can "create its own drawings" for call-up, review and full or partial re-use or feature extract and modification.

If you have significant years ahead of you?

That could be really helpful toward getting more tasks completed, better, faster, and with good re-use of what worked well, easier avoidance of, and/or modification from "lessons learned" of what did not work as well.

"If I were even 35 years younger...."

I'd think the "payback" is there.

And that any competition I will be dealing with may do as well. If not "already", thereby putting my relative turnaround time - and ultimately my food supply - in peril.

Any one-man or few-man shop NEEDS the "leverage" of technology. Always has. The technology just changes. Not the leverage paradigm.

"All manual". well.. Dinosaurs lived a helluva long time.

But if T-Rex were to pop-up out of a time-machine gateway and try to walk the Earth today?

Poor bastard would be dealt a crippling bustid leg by a soccer-mom on a cell phone in an SUV or mashed frog-flat to roadkill by a twin-screw Peterbilt haulin' 40-ton of Chinese re-bar at 85 MPH cruise or a slow freight train with a hundred tank cars of Canadian tar-sand crude before he could even find a single meal.

I'd not want to spend 20 large to buy another "yesterday".

I'd borrow another 20 large to add to buying a slice of a future.

"If I were even but 35 years younger.."

2CW

There are legitimate reasons to not want a full CNC lathe, however, at this point in time there are even fewer reasons to want to stick with purely manual.

Semi-cnc / Teach lathes are the best of both worlds, and do everything better and easier than a manual, with the exception of chasing threads (if you go for an old one. Newer teach lathes make this easy too.)

There are good quality lathes out there with teach controls on them - Harrison Alpha, Romi, Weiler.

Typical things you would use a centre lathe for in a repair shop - threading, tapers - much faster on a teach lathe than on a manual.

BTW, since you mention them, Haas TL lathes are garbage. Don't deserve to mentioned in the same context.

gregormarwick said:

... do everything better and easier than a manual, with the exception of chasing threads (if you go for an old one. Newer teach lathes make this easy too.)

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Point.

In the grey-toned "flashbacks" of that Optica video, are a few "how it used to be" shots of the Optica's "daddy". Near-identical "chassis", bed, spindle, and base - the venerable HBX-360-BC with the complex special apron threading system that just might be.. the best-ever inch/metric at will all-manual single-point threader on-planet.

I have one. And it is a complex bitch to understand long before it becomes and easy one to use. At all. Let alone "well"

But the Optica "teach in"? That clever devil can even pick-up-on and REPAIR threads.

So can a master. By hand. But it ain't as EASY nor fast.

Time.

Yah cannot "buy it back" at ANY affordable price, once used-up.

However well or poorly.

gregormarwick said:

.... at this point in time there are even fewer reasons to want to stick with purely manual.

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Except reliability. I've never had anything electronic that didn't eventually break.

And when it does, you'll hear "Wow, that's SO OLD ! Of course we don't carry parts for that ! But we'll sell you a new one !"

Mechanical things you can fix.

EmanuelGoldstein said:

Except reliability. I've never had anything electronic that didn't eventually break.

And when it does, you'll hear "Wow, that's SO OLD ! Of course we don't carry parts for that ! But we'll sell you a new one !"

Mechanical things you can fix.

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That's a solid point.

However, the Harrison Alphas, being Fanuc, are easy to keep running. Our little one is 23 years old, and my dad has one that is 22 years old - parts are off the shelf for both of them.

I think the newer Romis are Fanuc too. The older Bridgeport ones are full of obsolete electronics - so I have read, no first hand experience.

Weiler I think are all Siemens. Not sure how long term support is there.

Acer and Acra both have good reputations, they are US brand names for Taiwanese lathes.
I would also call (not email) the guys at Equipment Sales and Service, in Auburn Wa. They are the official scratch and dent and sample sales guys for Wilton, Powermatic, Jet, and Baleigh (all of which are owned by the same NYC investment firm).
They often have deals on very slightly used Taiwan machines.
I would only buy the biggest, highest end models of those brands- but I did, some years ago, exactly that, buying a trade show sample of a 6500lb 18x60 Jet that has served me very well for close to 20 years now. NO, its certainly not a Whacheon or a Weiler- but it cost a lot less, and it has 3 1/8" thru the spindle, and 7 1/2hp motor, and parts are available.
I paid about $4000 for it, including rigging, with maybe 4 hours on it- then, it was a $12k lathe, today, its more like $20k new.
Worth a call, see what they have.

gregormarwick said:

However, the Harrison Alphas, being Fanuc, are easy to keep running.

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That's one thing you can say for Fanuc, they do keep parts in stock for a long time.

If you are running a job shop, it's hard to justify a CNC of any description where your setup time exceeds your cutting time. Further to your point, a manual machine has a hundred year useful life and a CNC machine would be lucky to see a twenty year life.

Yeah...a new Whacheon is over $30K. But Greer does have some nice used ones...that's where I bought mine.

EmanuelGoldstein said:

That's one thing you can say for Fanuc, they do keep parts in stock for a long time.

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That's because they haven't changed their technology in 40 years.

All reasonable points. I theoretically can do this another 30 years or more,if I take care of my health. Of course this is not my only machine purchase, just not sure I'm ready for a full blown CNC right now. I can buy additional equipment in the future should I need or want to in the future. This would be my nice machine going forward until I am dead or out of the business.


I doubt I can swing a Whacheon, but ask them for a quote. Still leery of the snake oil salesmen that are used equipment dealers also have a general distrust of most used machinery. (probably due to getting burned on my current machine, and a general lack of ability to spot whooped equipment without taking it apart or the ability to run it)

Lathes - Metalworking
Looks like nothing but toy machines, and much larger than I need. Also, have no desire for Baliegh machines if they are anything like their other made in China knock offs.

I'll contact Greer, they show a couple of options.
Greer Machinery | Greer Machinery

Beyond the TL1/TL2 and listening to the HAAS sales weasel, I have little to no experience with CNC lathes. I know they are faster, but the one time part I can usually beat to the floor. Obviously once my design is done and the code is written, the part can be made a million times faster than me doing it by hand. Just no idea where to start with that. Losing three days to repairs instead of making the parts I need shows me I need reliability at this point. Not really sure where to go get more experience with different CNC lathes and such.

Firestopper, why did you do the VFD control. I looked at the inverter style machines to start with cuz whiz bang electronics of course, but Webb and Acra both said I would be happier with a standard gear train like I have now. Guess reliability and such isn't as high with the inverter machines.

Not on your list is Republic Lagun. Manual Lathes Archives - Lagun

Their prior website had more information, though not as "slick" in appearance. I prefer the information.

This seller has more information- though I believe they are- or used to be- made in Tiawan. Republic Lagun 14" x 40" High Speed Precision Gap Bed Lathe, RL-1440-TW-EVS-A - Norman Machine Tool

The thing with Greer (Tom Greer) is they are the sole importer in the US for Whacheon. They've been so for decades. So, unlike the average used machinery dealer, they have more skin in the game. They are also much more familiar with Whacheon lathes than would be the machinery dealer who dabbles in all sorts. That's worth some peace of mind in your transaction.

Acra is a damn good lathe for an American branded import. Tinsley Tool should be the supplier in your area and Gene is a no BS guy. I bought several 15x50 Acra mills and 21X120 lathes from them and they always were on top of any problems I had. My biggest complaint was the machines showed up in a woven bamboo crate nailed together with beer cans as corners. A few came with metric dials but that was a quick fix with a phone call. I really liked having feed shift on the fly without stopping to break chips.

If you want a beast of a lathe for a really good price look at Toolmex. their a Polish built lathe and sturdy as a brick crap house. I bought a couple of TUR-920's in 2009 and the distributor was Jefferies HFO. Nothing like having the Haas service guys available for an off brand machine.
Manual Lathes - Servo Conventional | Toolmex Industrial Solutions

You might look into pricing for the Webb lathe. They were also sold under the Cadillac name. AFAIK, they are made in Taiwan with Meehanite castings.

I have a 1987 Webb 4VH mill that weighs 3,500#. It too was built in Taiwan and it's been bulletproof for the 8 years I've been using it

I only mention the Mill because I'm familiar with the support and parts availability that Webb has. They have locations on the West Coast and are only a phone call away. When I was refurbishing my mill, they went out of their way to help out both with information and parts. JMO.

g-coder05 said:

Acra is a damn good lathe for an American branded import. Tinsley Tool should be the supplier in your area and Gene is a no BS guy. I bought several 15x50 Acra mills and 21X120 lathes from them and they always were on top of any problems I had. My biggest complaint was the machines showed up in a woven bamboo crate nailed together with beer cans as corners. A few came with metric dials but that was a quick fix with a phone call. I really liked having feed shift on the fly without stopping to break chips.

If you want a beast of a lathe for a really good price look at Toolmex. their a Polish built lathe and sturdy as a brick crap house. I bought a couple of TUR-920's in 2009 and the distributor was Jefferies HFO. Nothing like having the Haas service guys available for an off brand machine.
Manual Lathes - Servo Conventional | Toolmex Industrial Solutions

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The Toolmex lathes look nice, but WAY too big for my needs.

Tinsley Tool, Holy crap, this is 2020, how do you exist with NO WEB PRESENCE AT ALL? WTF.
Tinsley Tool Supply Inc 1705 Dry Gap Pike, Knoxville, TN 37918 - YP.com
1705 Dry Gap Pike, Knoxville, TN 37918 at DuckDuckGo

This is the only listing for what they are, were, ever will be. Not sure I want to deal with someone who doesn't know about the internet. I will give them a call though. May have to send smoke signals and carrier pigeons.

Interesting info on the Laguns:
ML-1740 & 2060-G-TW - Lagun
AT-1550-G-TW - Lagun
https://www.lagun.com/product/at-1840-60-80-120-g-tw/

They look sturdy, but no weights listed. Why the "colchester" references? What makes that any better than any other type of machine? I'm mean now days, Clausing stuff is all standard Chinese/Taiwan stuff relying on brand recognition now, right?


This machine is the same as the ACRA, Sun Master, Shun Chun, etc Asian Machines. Not that there is anything wrong with that, but not sure why to pick one Asian brand over another if the machines are pretty much the same thing with different paint and knobs.
https://www.normanmachinetool.com/p...n-14-x-40-high-speed-precision-gap-bed-lathe/

I sent Greer an email and will follow up with a call later today.