Titanium Fasteners. Anyone Knowledgeable????
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  1. #1
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    Default Titanium Fasteners. Anyone Knowledgeable????

    Guys,
    I'm looking for a source to buy 1/4-20 x 2" TITANIUM SHCS. (Socket Head Cap Screws).
    Anyhow, I have found a place that has 5mm SHCS in titanium, but I really need the English 1/4-20s. I have also googled and found a place that has the 1/4-20 x 2"ers that I want, BUT they have a $150 minimum order, and that is out of the question.
    FURTHERMORE, I would love to find out if there are titanium 1/4-20 nylon insert locknuts in existence, but I'm not sure if these even exist?
    Can anyone help me out here? I could manage without finding the 1/4-20 nylock nuts, but I really need some 1/4-20 x 2" SHCS in small quantities. Can ANYONE help here?
    Ironically, I HAVE been able to find titanium button head cap screws as small as 0-80's in small quantities, BUT I have not been able to find the 1/4-20 x 2" SHCS in small quantities.
    Can anyone help? I'm going to call Racebolts.com tomorrow, as their website SHOWS a link for "English" SHCS in titanium, BUT I have NO idea if they have what I need, in small quantities.
    Can anyone help here guys? I only need a total of FOUR of these SHCS and nylock nuts....???? Thanks guys...

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    You will be better off with one of the race shops for those, not just socket head, but the 1/4-20. Most I have seen are aircraft screws with 1/4-28 fine threads. I have piles of 1/4" fine thread hex heads if those will work for you.

    As for titanium nuts, that is asking for trouble. Titanium on titanium will gall up something awful, even with no load on it. Typically, titanium bolts are used with stainless nuts and washers for this reason.

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    Yeah, I was wondering what the word was on galling w/ TI fasteners.
    I will still be looking for a source for 1/4-20, BUT I would seriously be interested in 4-5 1/4-28's, if you are willing to part with them.
    Any chance you've got some nice looking ones about 2" long? (no less in length, but I can cut them off if need be).
    I would definitely be interested, and willing to pay you for them. Only caveat is they must look nice, and not all banged up.
    They are going on a finished product, and must look new, or almost brand new and shiny...
    Still looking for the 1/4-20's too though, as I'll need them for another project.
    Thanks Mike!
    Anyone else?

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    Let me see what I have. The should all be pretty nice condition. Not polished, but satin finish. These are aircraft bolts, so you can't doa lot of cutting, there's just not much thread. I have them in all kinds of lengths, so let me know exactly what you need to the closest 1/8th.

    Also, is this structural, high performance, or just decorative. There are different alloys of the bolts. Some are same strength as steel, some 120% and some 200%. No need to waste a high strength bolt if you don't need it. No difference in the general appearance of any of them.

    If you get over this way, there's a surplus place here in town than has loads of titanium hardware. He was selling titanium hardware for $8 a pound several years back. You know how many 1/4" titanium bolts are in a pound? lol. I bought 5 pounds in all different lengths and diameters. Also got a couple of 1x1ft plates and I also have some .020" sheet. I even have a 6ft stick of 3/4" .062" wall tubing.

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    I don't claim to be an expert on this, but I've read several times that Titanium has very poor shear strength which makes it unsuitable for applications such as bolts and screws.
    A quick google confirms that there some recomendations against using it for screws in medical applications for just this reason.

    Can anyone who has more experience using Titanium shed some more light on this?

    Peter

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    I wouldn't use Ti for anything important. As far as 'Ti on Ti' you can always get your torque with steel hardware and then replace with it with Ti liberally coated in anti-seize. Obviously only works application by application.

    bb

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Neill View Post
    it unsuitable for applications such as bolts and screws.
    A quick google confirms that there some recomendations against using it for screws in medical applications for just this reason.
    Peter
    Aircraft are held together with lots of Ti fasteners. I am personally held together with Titanium, 2 rods, 8 clips, 8 screws, used to hold my head to the rest of me, (almost).

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    Default Titanium Fastener Source

    TI fasteners are used in the anodizing industry. One possible source is a company called Servi-Sure, ph: 773-271-5900. I don't know what the min. order qtys. are.

    Tom

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    "I wouldn't use Ti for anything important. "

    Lol, OK. I sure would. 200% the strength of steel at two thirds the weight, doesn't corrode. Only bad thing about Ti is deep drilling, tapping, or reaming. It grabs internal tools like this. Turns beautifully, mills well... shapers love it.

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    To be a bit more specific, it has about 200% of the tensile strength of 1020 steel, but less than the tensile strength of 4140.

    However, it is not good in shear. The Ti6Al4V grade 5 (the most commonly used an specified as I understand) has only half the shear modulus of 1020 steel.

    Peter

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    Default Ti fasteners

    Check with domestic 'upscale' Ship Chandlers catering to the sailing racing crowd for Ti fasteners.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike C. View Post
    "I wouldn't use Ti for anything important. "

    Lol, OK. I sure would. 200% the strength of steel at two thirds the weight, doesn't corrode. Only bad thing about Ti is deep drilling, tapping, or reaming. It grabs internal tools like this. Turns beautifully, mills well... shapers love it.

    Ti also excells in shearing... I think that with poor install (often) are good enough reasons to leave it alone and go with tried and trusted materials.. and all the s**t qality Ti from dubious sources. Chances are anything your contemplating using Ti fasteners on, will see regular maintenance, so corrosion is likely no biggy.... maybe folks are making rockets, I don't know.


    bb

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    Peter

    I agree with you: titanium has to be specified with care in any situation involving high shear stresses (as a proportion vs tensile or compressive forces)
    It may not be obvious to those whose expertise is mainly practical that this applies particularly in highly loaded torsional applications (such as axle half-shafts).
    These are often protected from bending loads, which would induce tensile and compressive stresses.

    However the torsional loads appear as unmitigated and predominant shear stresses, and titanium is not generally a good choice in such situations
    Exceptions might include situations where it is being selected for (say) superb corrosion resistance, and sized correctly to reflect the relatively poor ability to withstand shear stress.

    In fastener situations it is not possible to be so dogmatic. Titanium can be -- and frequently is -- used successfully in highly critical fastener applications.
    In real life situations, tensile and shear forces combine and interact in complex ways in threaded fasteners.
    Anyone specifying highly loaded fasteners in titanium alloys needs to have the expertise to evaluate these in individual cases.

    FEA (finite element analysis, starting from a computer model) is not particularly helpful, because the skills needed to get meaningful and repeatable results pretty much require the above-mentioned expertise as a starting point.
    If you (or someone you report to) want meaningless reassurance, on the other hand, FEA is perfect.

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    "and all the s**t qality Ti from dubious sources."

    Not sure where you guys get yours, but my Ti fasteners are Mil Spec surplus from Gerneral Dynamic Ft Worth and Lockheed. Interesting that when mentioning replacing the AN grade hardware with Ti to Tory Larson, one of the design engineers on the A-12/SR-71 project, the only caution I got was to watch using cad plate Ti bolts on the exhaust system to avoid stress corrosion problems. He thought it was a great idea.

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    Hi I see Aircraft engine mounting and other applications made from Titanium designed so the engine is hanging from them. how can it not be good in shear.

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    A plane would be designed to use Ti hardware(and the hardware, probably specifically made for the job), and it would be certifiably good quality, and expertly installed. I guess a distinction needs to be made b/t militaries and the like using Ti, and an avid race car driver for instance, swapping out every fastener willy nilly in hopes of a better split.


    bb

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    The locations I would see as not wanting to have Ti would be blind holes. I would not be putting Ti bolts in an engine block or transmission housing. Not if, but WHEN they galled in (usualy coming out BTW), you'd be screwed green. You'd have no choice but to helicoil as you'd never get the galled bolt out.

    On through bolted stuff with nuts and washers, I'd see no problem at all. Any properly designed bolted joint depends on the bolt in tension to hold the mating surfaces tightly enough to avoid movement. In that situation Ti is every bit as good as steel in most cases, and better in those with the higher strength alloys.

    Most bolted connections are severely over engineered, even in aircraft applications, so you are not pushing the full capability of the fastener. I have replaced steel with Ti in many mundane applications, just to eliminate corrosion problems. Never seen one fail yet.

    Just as there are sorry quality stove bolts out of steel, I am sure there are cheap crappy Ti fasteners, but I would think not nearly so many. The stuff is just too expensive, too hard on tooling, and too hard to work with to encourage bargain basement manufacturing. If it's just for looks, most anything will do. If it counts, get surplus new A-N bolts of an alloy that will suit your needs, likely 6al 4v, seriously strong stuff.

    One big thing to beware of, Ti is actually a pretty soft metal. This is one reason it galls so easily. Don't use it in areas of impact or, especially wear.

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    Guys,
    For some odd reason, the forum did not send me email notification of all of your recent replies since my last post in this thread.
    I have my settings properly adjusted too.
    ANYHOW, coincidentally, this application which I need Ti 1/4-20 or 1/4-28 bolts for, IS INDEED for an aircraft engine. Albeit, a Radio Control engine!
    I am mounting an 85cc (approx 9hp) gas engine with a Walbro carb onto my 33% sized Extra 260 aerobatic airplane.
    Of course, the lighter the plane is built, the better it flies. This is why most of us Giant Scale flyers use titanium wheel axles, carbon fiber landing gear, and carbon fiber wingspars/wingtubes, etc, etc. The list goes on and on.
    Now I have seen many guys using titanium fasteners to bolt this exact engine to this exact airframe.
    Basically, I've got an "engine box" and firewall made out of 3/8" thick plywood, and I am going to be through-bolting the engine to the firewall with these titanium fasteners.
    As previously stated, I was wanting 1/4-20 bolts, but 1/4-28 will do.
    I think 6mm bolts will work, BUT those 1/4-20's or 1/4-28's fit PERFECTLY, and I would rather not have the slight bit of play that the 6mm bolts induce. They would probably work, BUT the 1/4-28's would be much better of a fit.
    Mike, I am no expert on shear strength issues/etc, but IF you have something that is going to be strong enough (sounds like you do), I am DEFINITELY interested. I need to mount this engine like YESTERDAY, so IF you can help me out with some 1/4-20 or
    1/4-28 bolts that are about 2" long, I would certainly appreciate it. I would need a total of 5 of them.
    I think you mentioned the thread length, so I'm going to go check in a minute to make absolute sure that 2" is the correct length I need. I'm 98% sure this is correct.
    I seriously thank you so much, as I've still not found any 1/4-20 or 1/4-28 bolts that are attainable, UNLESS I were to buy a $150 minimum order. This is out of the question.
    I will send you a PM here in a few minutes Mike, and I greatly appreciate your help!
    Look forward to talking to you soon!

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    Paul bit the bullet and pay the 150 min order charge.

    Then mark up the extras and sell at terrific profit!



    Clearly there is a market.

    Jim


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