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  1. #301
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1974 View Post
    I think one defining difference is the schooling required. I like to think my 4 years made a difference, but I completely understand that a machinist with no formal schooling, can be just as good, or better, than a "certified" toolmaker. Never going to argue that point. But I think it says something that a toolmaker went to school, earned a cert, etc....
    I think this probably has a lot to do with my opinion too although from the other end of the spectrum. It has been my experience generally over the time that I have been working in the general field of manufacturing that the formally trained are less competent and more self assured than those who were not.

    It probably goes without saying that I am not formally trained in this field, although I am qualified in a totally different one, so I understand the commitment and effort involved in a formal higher education.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gregormarwick View Post
    After reading the most recent posts ITT I've realised that I was tackling this from the wrong angle. Instead of trying to define what a "toolmaker" is or isn't, it makes more sense to define what a "machinist" is or isn't.

    It's clear that the self-important toolmakers consider a machinist to be someone who simply makes a part from a print without any critical assessment (otrlt's position) to easily achievable tolerances (DavidScott's position).

    A toolmaker then is someone who employs some critical thought to assess the function and design of an assembly (encroaching on the scope of "engineer") and can manufacture the components to tighter tolerances using different methods and equipment.

    MY position is that there are poor machinists and good machinists, and a good machinist is one who can do all the above as and when required. This corresponds with my initial assertion that "toolmaking" is an obsolete trade.
    So there are no such things as toolmakers, just good machinists?

  3. #303
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    Quote Originally Posted by otrlt View Post
    ...
    Expecting "perfect" parts to be assembled "perfectly" is a fantasy........
    quit thinking about "parts", think assembly.
    Well that is a different viewpoint.
    I had thought the world of hand fitted or size match went away a while back. That is not a toolmaker or a good machinist.
    Toolmakers are different from general purpose machinists for sure. Just as sure many "machinists" are toolmakers.
    You are correct, not much aircraft stuff.
    Bob

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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidScott View Post
    So there are no such things as toolmakers, just good machinists?
    I'm just repeating myself at this point as I've said all this at various stages earlier in this thread.

    But yes, that is effectively what I'm saying. "Toolmaker" is just a name. We could probably make exceptions for people who specialise in mould and die work and various other facets of the trade, but generally speaking the toolmaker is a legacy position from a paradigm of manufacturing that no longer exists.

    Go and look in any successful machineshop today and you will find a person who is the problem solver, who designs and builds something if something needs to be designed and built, who figures out processes and optimisations. Every good, reputable, growing shop that I have set foot in in the last twenty years has someone like that. Invariably, that person will not hold the title of toolmaker. Ergo, the "toolmaker" is obsolete. You can disagree, but your position is not consistent with reality.

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  6. #305
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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidScott View Post
    So there are no such things as toolmakers, just good machinists?
    Not sure we'll get much of an answer, the bugger is only offering:

    "toolmaking for rum"

    One would think even ordinary Machinists prefer some better choice of beverage, and "real toolmakers" only drink Viking Mead or Uisce beatha?

    Or maybe just know how to SPELL?

    WTF are we doing, still HERE?

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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    Not sure we'll get much of an answer, the bugger is only offering:

    "toolmaking for rum"

    One would think even ordinary Machinists prefer some better choice of beverage, and "real toolmakers" only drink Viking Mead or Uisce beatha?

    Or maybe just know how to SPELL?

    WTF are we doing, still HERE?
    If anyone understands this jiberish, their is a rubber room waiting for you.

    To allow this constant bulshit on your site, you (PM management) are accountable.

  8. #307
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    Quote Originally Posted by otrlt View Post
    If anyone understands this jiberish, their is a rubber room waiting for you.

    To allow this constant bulshit on your site, you (PM management) are accountable.
    Jayzus.

    Couldn't spell "forum".

    Can't make the distinction between a clothing store (Jiberish) and trafficing in nonsense (gibberish).

    Didn't have a klew that those who NEED tools, dies, jigs, and fixtures made JF get it DONE, and need not kiss your Most High and Holy Fascist ass for any specific "Job Title" to GET it done, either!

    Didn't have a klew that folks who need compressed air are VERY DAMNED WELL AWARE of how crucially they need it, and have seldom been otherwise!

    Now.. it turns out you cannot even spell "bullshit", despite being quite the trafficer IN IT?

    ANYONE who actually has a klew and calls you out has to be DRUNK rather than simply more experienced - or aware EARLIER than your latest comic-book discovery?

    Might we guess you are "the self annointed one" taking over from small-d-the COVID-orphaned-drama-queen as Master Of The F**king UNIVERSE?

    He who INSULTS rather than informs?

    Good luck with THAT.

    It's PM, dammit!

    These folk know their s**t! BIGTIME!

    My ass needs kicked? It sure as f**k GETS kicked!!!
    Ain't nobody "real" here as is the least damned bit slow nor shy about that.

    I have learnt to be grateful for that as a learning experience.

    If you are unable to make that shift in attitude?

    Learn more, "dictate" less?

    Luck might not be all that kind.

    JFDWT, for it will assuredly deal with YOU!

    "Rubber room" is a condom godown, BTW.

    "Godown" as Durex claim the mainland Chinese use more than any other nation.

    Ever seen Red Chinese Tee Vee? Got a thing or two in common with your posts on PM, actually.

    People would rather just f**k off.


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    "My ass needs kicked? It sure as f**k GETS kicked!!!"

    Bill, stop being a troll, and you will have a better time of it.
    Just quit lying, and being the know it all bully, you never have been.

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    Quote Originally Posted by donie View Post
    "My ass needs kicked? It sure as f**k GETS kicked!!!"

    Bill, stop being a troll, and you will have a better time of it.
    Just quit lying, and being the know it all bully, you never have been.
    C'mon, let us in on it, oh dowager-empress of drama-queens.

    Did you pork the wrong skank and have a Son we didn't know about?

    Or have you trained-up otrlt to be your successor as arrogant congenital liar-FOOL?

    Learn to love your potty-mouth or YOUR pictures don't happen?

    G'wan "blackmail us all!"

    FIRST .38-45 bullet to your OWN head, and then the real NASTY s**t begans.. because the NEXT five rounds are for your ENEMIES!

    Can't TELL you anything, or one might point out...

    N'er mind.

    You wouldn't listen, anyway, would you?

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    "FIRST .38-45 bullet to your OWN head, and then the real NASTY s**t begans.. because the NEXT five rounds are for your ENEMIES!"

    You are the one that talks of death, and violence, especially my death, with violence, all I did was catch you lying about your fake machinist background!


    "You wouldn't listen, anyway, would you?" No, you are a liar, and attacked me first, and now cant handle it,

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    Quote Originally Posted by donie View Post
    "FIRST .38-45 bullet to your OWN head, and then the real NASTY s**t begans.. because the NEXT five rounds are for your ENEMIES!"

    You are the one that talks of death, and violence, especially my death, with violence, all I did was catch you lying about your fake machinist background!


    "You wouldn't listen, anyway, would you?" No, you are a liar, and attacked me first, and now cant handle it,
    IF ONLY.. in your life-long career of "wound collecting".. you had collected less BULLSHIT?

    You might be only HALF full of it?

    The good news is .. if ever you LOSE that load of shit you traffic in?
    You'll no longer need to burden yourself with carrying keys.

    Just walk UNDER the door or slither in through the keyhole!

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    Give it up troll!, try do do something, make something fix your pile of crap for machines, then show a cheerful photo!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1974 View Post
    I'm surprised at the *hate* for toolmakers... And, no, I don't agree with Otwits responses/ideas of what a toolmaker is or isn't... but having been a toolmaker in a previous life, it's hard not to get offended.

    I think one defining difference is the schooling required. I like to think my 4 years made a difference, but I completely understand that a machinist with no formal schooling, can be just as good, or better, than a "certified" toolmaker. Never going to argue that point. But I think it says something that a toolmaker went to school, earned a cert, etc....
    Me too on number one. One wants to be proud of the effort put in and it does say something.
    Around here at one time skilled trades was the golden ticket so when openings everyone applied.
    If you passed the entry there was "We have Electrician, Millwright, Toolmaker, etc. and you picked one. There was a test that sort of pointed you to one.
    Downside if already in the plant and off the line you took a pay cut to start. This eliminated many.
    Upside we will send you to school, pay for everything and pay you full wage to be in class and a ratchet wage during the apprenticeship.
    Did you take a weekly pay cut for a bit to enter this, would you have if the rules? Was school time 100% paid?

    Smaller companies and the rules and compensations different. I did no pay cut but school time was not full floor pay. Others all kinds of different.
    I can not put a whole lot of "trust" in a card or title. Sure it does makes an impression and that person does have a right to feel stand up.
    "I sit at the right hand of God and know all", ....not so much for that. Saying that toolmakers are going slow going machinists also rubs me the wrong way in spades.

    Am confused as to the why of arguments or any need to be so special. CNCs, six-sigma and all stuff that have sort of changed the world.
    Bob
    (how can one be a toolmaker in a previous life, reborn?)

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    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post
    Me too on number one. One wants to be proud of the effort put in and it does say something.
    Around here at one time skilled trades was the golden ticket so when openings everyone applied.
    If you passed the entry there was "We have Electrician, Millwright, Toolmaker, etc. and you picked one. There was a test that sort of pointed you to one.
    Downside if already in the plant and off the line you took a pay cut to start. This eliminated many.
    Upside we will send you to school, pay for everything and pay you full wage to be in class and a ratchet wage during the apprenticeship.
    Did you take a weekly pay cut for a bit to enter this, would you have if the rules? Was school time 100% paid?

    Smaller companies and the rules and compensations different. I did no pay cut but school time was not full floor pay. Others all kinds of different.
    I can not put a whole lot of "trust" in a card or title. Sure it does makes an impression and that person does have a right to feel stand up.
    "I sit at the right hand of God and know all", ....not so much for that. Saying that toolmakers are going slow going machinists also rubs me the wrong way in spades.

    Am confused as to the why of arguments or any need to be so special. CNCs, six-sigma and all stuff that have sort of changed the world.
    Bob
    (how can one be a toolmaker in a previous life, reborn?)
    Bob, me personally, say "in another life" because I am pretty well removed from it now. I sit at a desk and program all day. I still do, and know, how to set up a cnc machine, program and set up a wedm, can jump on a BP and/or surface grinder, etc, but it's not my *daily driver* anymore like it was....

    My schooling was paid, but my time for it was not, neither was homework time, all that on me. Also, not a requirement, but I spent alot of time after hours making my own stuff too. Vises, V-blocks, parallels, 1x2x3 blocks, etc....

    edit: It won't matter much, but IMO, a machinist can be anyone that has ran, or can run a machine, whether BP, cnc vmc, laser (or all), etc... a toolmaker is someone who went to school and had formal training....

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    I have a couple friends that are "old school" toolmakers" in their 60's. We get along real good. I'm a know nothing mechanic that decided to make some shit and buy some machines. Never even worked as a machinist in my life.

    I understand what a tenth is.

    My job as fucking doer of everything from design to manufacture to box and a pretty sticker is to avoid tenths whenever possible.

    However, shit happens and products see success. Tenths must be achieved. Toolmaker friends must be consulted.

    Toolmaker friends reassure I'm not as stupid as this thread makes me feel.

    Turns out this guy that makes vise jaws is a fucking douchebag. Probably has some skills, but not with people.

    I can only hope purchasing agent at his "main customer" sees this thread.

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  18. #316
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garwood View Post

    Toolmaker friends reassure I'm not as stupid as this thread makes me feel.

    Turns out this guy that makes vise jaws is a fucking douchebag. Probably has some skills, but not with people.

    I can only hope purchasing agent at his "main customer" sees this thread.
    Hello Garwood,
    If you feel stupid of what I have posted in this thread, ask your Toolmaker friends to read what I have posted. I assure you that my statements are accurate.

    As far of your wish to persuade purchasing agents to drop my quotes, My company is a "sole source" supplier of precision aircraft tooling.

    Call Boeing Aircraft, tell them that I'm a fucking douchebag.

    Good luck in conducting your own business.

  19. #317
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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    Jayzus.

    Couldn't spell "forum".

    Can't make the distinction between a clothing store (Jiberish) and trafficing in nonsense (gibberish).

    Didn't have a klew that those who NEED tools, dies, jigs, and fixtures made JF get it DONE, and need not kiss your Most High and Holy Fascist ass for any specific "Job Title" to GET it done, either!

    Didn't have a klew that folks who need compressed air are VERY DAMNED WELL AWARE of how crucially they need it, and have seldom been otherwise!

    Now.. it turns out you cannot even spell "bullshit", despite being quite the trafficer IN IT?

    ANYONE who actually has a klew and calls you out has to be DRUNK rather than simply more experienced - or aware EARLIER than your latest comic-book discovery?

    Might we guess you are "the self annointed one" taking over from small-d-the COVID-orphaned-drama-queen as Master Of The F**king UNIVERSE?

    He who INSULTS rather than informs?

    Good luck with THAT.

    It's PM, dammit!

    These folk know their s**t! BIGTIME!

    My ass needs kicked? It sure as f**k GETS kicked!!!
    Ain't nobody "real" here as is the least damned bit slow nor shy about that.

    I have learnt to be grateful for that as a learning experience.

    If you are unable to make that shift in attitude?

    Learn more, "dictate" less?

    Luck might not be all that kind.

    JFDWT, for it will assuredly deal with YOU!

    "Rubber room" is a condom godown, BTW.

    "Godown" as Durex claim the mainland Chinese use more than any other nation.

    Ever seen Red Chinese Tee Vee? Got a thing or two in common with your posts on PM, actually.

    People would rather just f**k off.

    Now I have to say that that one run through the translator pretty dang good!

    I know a toolmaker and his skill and title are not disputed. He has the equipment and the knowledge and such person was mentored with more than one doing so. That kind of business will find its way to such a person and no one quibbles about how much it costs because they do not work to prove what they are and also they want to be paid.

  20. #318
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    Quote Originally Posted by yardbird View Post
    The difference between a good haircut and a bad haircut is knowing when to quit....
    or two weeks.

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