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  1. #21
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    FWIW, some years back on a project for my employer, I had occasion to present a proposal to eBay, UPS and FedEx. Tangential to the proposal, all three of them disclosed in different language they were working toward chasing away individuals shipping the random parcel. All three saw their business model as serving fewer, larger corporate accounts.

    Result, today, an individual taking a parcel into a UPS store will pay 4X what Amazon et al will pay for the same size, weight and distance.

    jack vines

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    Quote Originally Posted by dalmatiangirl61 View Post
    I ship every day, I can pack to survive a 20' fall, but cardboard, foam, and tape does not stand a chance being driven over by a truck.
    I strongly disagree. Most people overthink it. Empty space and squishy stuff is the wrong answer. Loose parts wrong answer. Wood and screws wrong answer.

    Order the right fucking boxes and make whatever you ship into one solid lump inside solid cardboard and you can drive right over it no problem.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dalmatiangirl61 View Post
    I ship every day, I can pack to survive a 20' fall, but cardboard, foam, and tape does not stand a chance being driven over by a truck. I've been purchasing quite a bit of tooling past few months, even after asking sellers to take extra care in packing, sometimes giving explicit instructions on how to pack, almost every package received is heavily damaged because seller failed to pack it properly. Some people must think the carriers employ pixies and ompalumpas to hand carry every package.
    I never cease to be amazed at some of the packing jobs I see coming into my shop. Several times I’ve gotten heavy tools—-steady for my EE as an example—- simply dropped into a light duty corrugated box with a bunch of plastic peanuts poured in filling the box part way and closed top and bottom with a single strip of cheap strapping tape or even masking tape, Those boxes often arrive partially split open with a lot of tape UPS or USPS has had to apply in transit. I will usually let the shippers know and they invariably complain about the “knuckle-draggers” who deliver the packages. Wow! The knuckle dragger is right there in the mirror.

    When I ship my straight edges they are first boxed in a plywood and fir well-fitted box and tightly blocked in place. The box is glued and screwed shut with a label placed inside. The SE is sprayed with CRC—336 and wrapped in plastic. The actual shipping label is carefully attached to the outside with circumferential tape. Never had any trouble with box damage or bruising of the SE despite shipping all over the 50 states, Canada, and Australia with USPS,UPS, and FedEx. The recipient usually keeps the box for SE safe-keeping.

    Denis

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  6. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garwood View Post
    I strongly disagree. Most people overthink it. Empty space and squishy stuff is the wrong answer. Loose parts wrong answer. Wood and screws wrong answer.

    Order the right fucking boxes and make whatever you ship into one solid lump inside solid cardboard and you can drive right over it no problem.
    C'mon! 'merica moves 95% of its goods on "wrong answers", then! Nearly ALL of it makes a safe trip.

    Sure hate to recieve a light-alloy TBI cast into a block of 5,000 PSI concrete with instructions to order meself a 10 gal drum of Muriatic acid and "proceed with extreme care!".

    Time & materials cost versus realistic probability of damage thing, "squishy stuff" and firmer foams have become.


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    Quote Originally Posted by dalmatiangirl61 View Post
    I ship every day, I can pack to survive a 20' fall, but cardboard, foam, and tape does not stand a chance being driven over by a truck. I've been purchasing quite a bit of tooling past few months, even after asking sellers to take extra care in packing, sometimes giving explicit instructions on how to pack, almost every package received is heavily damaged because seller failed to pack it properly. Some people must think the carriers employ pixies and ompalumpas to hand carry every package.
    Given that they employ pixies and Oompa Loompas to push buttons on CNC critters, their own home multi-media rigs, as talking-heads on cable news, Denisovians of the Wide Howz, or as reprehensibles in the Yew Ass Cronkgrass?

    Why would they believe otherwise?


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    If someone stabs me in the back, I don't go back over to their house for dinner.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    Wot the Hey? You talkin' to machinisists? Or pumpkins?

    Let the air out.

    Of the basketball. Not the box.

    If there be a shortage of replacement of it at the destination?

    BFD.

    You KNOW McMaster-Carr will have an SKU for it..

    Yabutt, UUps ships car tires with nothing. No box, just slap a label on them.

    And they show up with air in them....all over them, inside the center, etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by digger doug View Post
    Yabutt, UUps ships car tires with nothing. No box, just slap a label on them.

    And they show up with air in them....all over them, inside the center, etc.
    Tirerack, UPS, and I are old friends.

    Let me know you figure out how to KEEP air in the buggers, all the heavy screws and s**t as litter our local landfill drop-points.

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    Why do they call them packing "peanuts" when they replaced popcorn and they still look more like popcorn then peanuts? Was it a marketing gimmick to differentiate between the two when the plastic version first came out? Maybe to make them sound more expensive since peanuts cost a good bit more then popcorn. Why not call them packing cavier today.
    Bill D

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    On the flip side is Fedex heavy packages.
    Ordered a motor, 130 pounds so expected a truck.
    Yet came in a regular delivery and the poor guy had to haul it into the shop by himself.
    He told me yes now they have to deliver big that should be on a semi. Said that there is a video of a quad stuffed into a regular delivery van.

    Worse than that due to packing and handling the back bellhousing was broken so I had to send it back and he had to come pick it back up.

    Limits used to be 50 pounds and you can put 45 pounds of carbide into a very small box so we used to like to puck with the UPS man but over a hundred seems crazy.
    In a solid carbide block the $10.25 box is 150-170 pounds. About half that weight if loose packed or scrap. I think that a deal.

    Since there is much value in our boxes going out I have always told my packing people that I expect them to be able to take that box up on the roof, toss it into the parking lot and the box still hold the contents and stays intact.
    (along with the standard work instructions on how to tape every box, weird that you have to have a written SWI on taping a box to make people pay attention and be accountable)
    Strapping tape and bubble wrap along with peanuts are cheap.
    In 40 years we lost one broken box and that was before I started this instruction to packaging.
    I do not insure packages, I make sure they are packaged for the 800 pound gorilla and expect terrible treatment.

    I have received packages that I wondered how it made it here alive for this weight in this pack.
    The motor above, that vendor will not get another order so packaging counts.
    Bob

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garwood View Post
    Thanks for posting this!

    Was not aware of this and had gotten away from most of our UPS shipping. This is pretty cool.

    From somebody that ships a lot if you ship something that can be crushed you aren't too bright.

    You can drop my packages from 20 feet onto concrete and then drive a loaded UPS truck over it and it will be fine.

    It really isn't that hard. If you can make stuff from metal I'm certain you can wrap your brain around cardboard and tape.

    Most people just choose not to thinking insurance will cover it.
    You are in a different world. Shipping a "lot"? 2 parcels is twice as many as 1 parcel? Define a "lot". Some days we load the truck. We prefer shipping volume on pallets but sometimes gotta go brown. Latest driver is a total nut job. UPS does not care. They also have a team that does not give a schit about you or anybody else. Hey, my anvil arrived broken? Sorry, poor packing.
    UPS has whole "value added" departments. A bit too much packing? Box bulges so an extra charge. They do scan them. UPS freight noticed a handle poking above a 48"w x 80"l x 54"h crate I used to ship very often. $1000.00 additional charge. They hounded me for the $. I finally sent a letter telling them that I knew they had this team of money grubbers just for this purpose. My crate could not have anything on top, they just wanted me to shut up and pay. No further money grubbing letters or emails after that.

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    Your complaints with UPS make me wonder. Did you report the damage? And did you demand replacements from the supplier? I don't care what a supplier or the shipper that they choose says, when you purchase something you are legally entitled to the delivery of that item in serviceable condition. I ordered and received many items in my career, many of them quite expensive. And when a package arrived with obvious damage, I first took pictures of the exterior, before opening it. Then I inspected the item and, if it was damaged, I was immediately on the phone to the supplier. I also had the shipping clerk at my company immediately report it to the local office of the freight company. With photos to back me up, it was a rare instance when I did not get replacement items with no charge. The fight with the freight company belongs to the shipper, not the receiver of the damaged goods. The supplier, the shipper OWES you that merchandise.

    If these problems are not reported, then UPS, as a company, has no way of knowing that they exist. Only the driver who caused the damage knows about it and he/she has every reason for not reporting it. You have to rattle their cage. One report may not make much difference, but if upper management becomes aware of multiple problems at a given location and they have to pay for multiple damaged shipments, you can bet the farm that they will take action sooner or later. Even if they pass that cost on to an insurance company, their rates will go up and someone will notice.

    Oh, and speaking of insurance, just because you did not purchase any insurance on the shipment and it goes beyond the amount that the freight company claims responsibility for, does not absolve the supplier that you purchased it from. They are still responsible for delivering the merchandise you purchased, in good condition if you paid for it. You should never pay for a damaged shipment. If necessary contact your credit card company and demand a refund.



    Quote Originally Posted by Dualkit View Post
    After I read this I went out and opened my UPS delivered 6 foot 3/16 steel rods. The shipping tube was split open in 2 places like those pop n fresh dough containers. Of course they are all bent at the 44" mark. Screw UPS and Online Metals. I am in Virginia and they shipped them from all the way from Washington, that 3,000 mile UPS ground trip was bent bar stock waiting to happen.

    Unfortunately for me the local metal yard that delivers does not sell many steels in less than 5/16" round. The local one that won't deliver has a $150 minimum even for cash will calls. That leaves me with UPS delivering small diameter rounds as all the online vendors I buy from use them. When it comes to bar stock in tubes from UPS I would say 25% or more of them have arrive damaged. It seems like most of the boxed items I get arrive OK, but that is usually light items traveling a couple hundred miles.

    I realize everyone's experience is different but UPS has always been terrible for me here in Virginia and in Cali. In Cali while playing Dualkit I used to receive quite a few inbound shipments. I could tell the UPS ones by how beat up they looked. I once bought a vintage counting scale on E-bay. The seller had put it in a wooden crate, put packing materials around that and a heavy cardboard box over that. The box arrived with a corner crushed in and a tire mark on it. It looks like it fell off a building and then was hit with a forklift tire. UPS denied the claim, saying it was improperly packaged.

    I think your results must vary due to the route the packages take. If your local shipping hub whether UPS, Fedex or USPS is ran by idiots your packages will often get damaged. Had an employee back in Cali whose cousin worked as a temp at the UPS distribution center in Ontario. He said they often kicked the small packages out of the trucks to save time from bending over to pick them up and management encouraged the practice.

    Another neat thing here is during inclement weather UPS drops packages at the post office to complete delivery, that can add up to a week. Their definition of bad weather is pretty lax, an inch of snow or an inch of water on a road from a creek over flow will cause the UPS drivers to vanish from the roadways.

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    Do large volume shippers get lower rates?

    Heck yes they do. But they do some of the work that the shipping companies have to do when I would ship from my house or from a small business in a warehouse or strip center. That van that Grizzly fills every day will have all the paper work already done and entered in the UPS system before the driver arrives. And the packages may be per-sourted. So there is some justification for the discounts. The last company that I worked for got discounts; they were probably the largest volume shipper in the town. Reps from all the major shipping companies would drop by and give them their latest offer. The shipping clerk there had computers and scales from at least three or four of them sitting on her counter so everything was set to go when the driver arrived: he/she just picked up the packages and left. It was a 2 minute stop or less.

    That company knew that volume was the key for this so they "allowed" the employees to also ship things at the company rates. I saved a lot while I was working there. And there is a clue as to how a small business could possible work the system. Look for a medium sized company near you that ships a lot. Go in and talk to them and see if they might allow you to use their system, at their prices. The advantage to them is increased volume so they have increased negotiating power with the shipping companies. And you can get better shipping rates. You may have to use their address for any returns, but that could be a small price to pay.

    I suggested a medium sized company because large ones may be totally disinterested. But a medium sized company often is looking for ways to decrease costs and getting better shipping rates due to a larger volume would be one possibility. Do be prompt in paying that other company for the shipping services performed this way.

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    Here it is Fedex that I have trouble with. Just depends where you are.

    Also for anyone who doesn't know "UPS Store" is just privately owned franchises, so you are only paying the franchise to middleman the deal with UPS to which they tack on any additional money that they want. The price at the store will almost always be a fair bit above what the UPS price is if you just go online, and print a label yourself. (that has been my experience at least with the UPS Stores)

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    Quote Originally Posted by EPAIII View Post
    Your complaints with UPS make me wonder. Did you report the damage? And did you demand replacements from the supplier? I don't care what a supplier or the shipper that they choose says, when you purchase something you are legally entitled to the delivery of that item in serviceable condition. I ordered and received many items in my career, many of them quite expensive. And when a package arrived with obvious damage, I first took pictures of the exterior, before opening it. Then I inspected the item and, if it was damaged, I was immediately on the phone to the supplier. I also had the shipping clerk at my company immediately report it to the local office of the freight company. With photos to back me up, it was a rare instance when I did not get replacement items with no charge. The fight with the freight company belongs to the shipper, not the receiver of the damaged goods. The supplier, the shipper OWES you that merchandise.

    If these problems are not reported, then UPS, as a company, has no way of knowing that they exist. Only the driver who caused the damage knows about it and he/she has every reason for not reporting it. You have to rattle their cage. One report may not make much difference, but if upper management becomes aware of multiple problems at a given location and they have to pay for multiple damaged shipments, you can bet the farm that they will take action sooner or later. Even if they pass that cost on to an insurance company, their rates will go up and someone will notice.

    Oh, and speaking of insurance, just because you did not purchase any insurance on the shipment and it goes beyond the amount that the freight company claims responsibility for, does not absolve the supplier that you purchased it from. They are still responsible for delivering the merchandise you purchased, in good condition if you paid for it. You should never pay for a damaged shipment. If necessary contact your credit card company and demand a refund.
    Not necessarily.

    Check the invoice and their shipping policy. Look carefully for the "magic words", which are something on the order of "orders shipped FOB our facility".

    When you agree to buy from them, those words put the entire responsibility on YOU.... "Freight On Board" means that the supplier's delivery of the item to the shipping company essentially constitutes delivery to you, they take no further responsibility. The shipping company, such as UPS, takes on the responsibility of completing the delivery of goods, which is the service they provide. That means that the RECIPIENT is now responsible for fighting with UPS or whomever it is.

    The only way you can get resolution from the supplier is either they decide to take pity and make it good, OR you essentially have to sue them and claim negligence, such as grossly improper packaging, or the like.

    "FOB" is a wonderful thing.... if you are a supplier.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JST View Post
    "FOB" is a wonderful thing.... if you are a supplier.
    "Free On Board" originally a sea-freight term, wooden ships, Iron men days & susbsequent as well as "SAS" - Safe Along Side (delivered to the dock or quay, Up to the ship or the port to load it, thereafter.

    But that applies more to dealings with common-carrier FREIGHT.

    "Couriers" of the parcel delivery tribe - USPS, UPS, FedEx, TNT, DHL, etc,
    historically - any national Post (USPS included), become new layers of players in their own right.

    THEY have terms of their own as to what they will accept, what level of standard risk, and what limits apply to higher declared values and optional insurance schemes are in effect.

    WHEN.. those are not good enough?

    An independent underwriter is tasked, Not the "normal" or even self-insured schedule of the Common Carrier.

    Example: A complete satellite Earth Station, McLean, Virginia to Lagos, Nigeria. Not that company's ONLY such. Just one of their hairier ones. You'd have to know Nigeria of that era more than you'd have to know satellite telecoms!

    Each of those deals needed more than just your average white-bread, blue serge suit, and white cotton-socks underwriter to price-out!

    So any firm that needs it simply gets their OWN insurance coverage.

    And/or uses a "logistics" specialist / broker.

    Not necessarily a Martin-Brower, Kuhne & Naegle, Hellmans, or even Angel Case.

    UPS and FedEX do much the same as in-house speciality divisions. Simple one-time, special need? See "premium LTL".

    Worth their crust, last task I gave them. Wasn't a cheap crust, but it was value for money, given the nature of the goods and the overall environment, challenging legal issue as well as fragility and risk.

    "One size seldom fits all"

    Use the MIX as suits yer bizness.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dalmatiangirl61 View Post
    UPS offers overnight shipping from BFE, the catch is you have to meet the plane at the airport, at 7am. Heck, we even have a UPS Customer Center, problem is its not staffed, ever. Usps and Fedex both have stable local employees, UPS cannot retain drivers and will hire anyone that can fog a mirror, as soon as they get a better job they are gone.

    Really?
    United Parcel Service (UPS), Inc. Hourly Pay | PayScale

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    Quote Originally Posted by tdmidget View Post
    No idea their CURRENT situation, but stood a grad level Labour & Industrial Relations evening Class, early 1970's made the acquaintance of a Teamsters Union Official. Class was near-as-dammit 50/50 Union officials and Middle-plus Management, average age near 40, The Phd Prof went and sat in the back to learn from us!



    UPS, Pittsburgh, was tied-for-first-place with Chicago as their primo bulk-break facility, that era. Their members were not treated at all shabbily.

    Not by the COMPANY, anyway.

    You'd have the know the Teamsters Union for the other part...



    "How many Teamster's Union members does it take to change a light-bulb?"

    "TWELVE!! Youse assholes got some kinda f***kin' PROBLEM wit dat?"

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    "Your complaints with UPS make me wonder. Did you report the damage? "

    Lol...as if that would do anything. UPS, FedEx, Amazon....their business model is based on the 'avoidance' of any and all claims. Legally? sure - you have a leg to stand on. Just don't expect anyone to really care. You can go sit in the gorilla cage at the zoo and tell him in clear tones that he legally has no right to do what he's doing to you while he's doing it and a crowd watches.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EPAIII View Post
    Your complaints with UPS make me wonder. Did you report the damage? And did you demand replacements from the supplier?
    Some of the replies here make me cringe, the condescension implying others here are stupid takes the cake.

    I reported all damaged packages to the shipper and did my best to help them with their claim. I even had a couple claims myself over the years and even when I was fully insured and proved what the items sold for and fought past their "improperly packaged BS" they sent $100 checks for a $500 and $800 item saying that is all they determined they were worth.

    As for those claiming damaged packages are always the packer's fault try thinking outside your small world. Not everyone is sending diamond rings they can afford to ship inside a brick. A good example is those 6 foot material tubes the ones from McMaster are pretty thick and if I dispose of them (Landfill convenience site has a 4' max) I use a saw to cut them in half as of them you can't stomp on them and fold them over easily, yet UPS easily destroys them.

    So those blaming the packer for damage what should McMaster do when shipping 3/8" or less metal rods? The only way to make them UPS proof would be to put them inside of steel containers and who would pay for all that extra cost?
    On a larger small dollar item you won't sell a one if you drive up the cost by packing it to survive a plane crash. If it is packed good enough to survive a fall off a roof that should be sufficient. When that UPS plane crashed a half dozen years ago I wonder how many claims were denied for improper packaging.


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