Used tool addition thoughts for my shop (surface grinder)

Hi folks,
I'm hoping to get some input from the fine folks on here. I didn't put this question on the abrasive machining thread since I am asking such basic and general questions. I have been thinking of the possibility of adding a small surface grinder to my shop arsenal. I don't really NEED one I want one for General grinding of hardened parts and really to play with. I can't think of a reason my business really needs one besides profiling some tools and grinding some hardened fixtures and vise jaws. While I have some minor experience using small surface grinders it is limited and was a long time ago.

Anyhow, I'm watching the local used market and there are two 6x18 machines available to me right now. One is a Harig which belongs to a friend and the other is a Reid on FacePlant marketplace. I don't know how to check if these machines are any good. Really, I don't know where to start. Space is at a premium and I really have to carve out a spot for one to start. I know they are messy like my belt sander and bench grinders.

Any input will be appreciated so I can properly begin to over think this stuff. I'd say that my practical budget is at a laughable $2000.

Thanks!
Rick

I had a friend find a 6 X 18 Reid curbside on the bad part of town. He lugged it back to his shop, cleaned it up, and it held size ever since. Go figure.

I have an old K.O. Lee in my shop that I nearly chucked. Then one day I decided to take a few swipes on a part. Even tho I had grown up in a shop and seen my dad run one all the time, I thought I had little use for it. Now I can't live without it.

NC Rick said:

Hi folks,
I'm hoping to get some input from the fine folks on here. I didn't put this question on the abrasive machining thread since I am asking such basic and general questions. I have been thinking of the possibility of adding a small surface grinder to my shop arsenal. I don't really NEED one I want one for General grinding of hardened parts and really to play with. I can't think of a reason my business really needs one besides profiling some tools and grinding some hardened fixtures and vise jaws. While I have some minor experience using small surface grinders it is limited and was a long time ago.

Anyhow, I'm watching the local used market and there are two 6x18 machines available to me right now. One is a Harig which belongs to a friend and the other is a Reid on FacePlant marketplace. I don't know how to check if these machines are any good. Really, I don't know where to start. Space is at a premium and I really have to carve out a spot for one to start. I know they are messy like my belt sander and bench grinders.

Any input will be appreciated so I can properly begin to over think this stuff. I'd say that my practical budget is at a laughable $2000.

Thanks!
Rick

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Both have decent reputations. I might go with the Harig if only because you can know more about its provenance and condition, mayhap get a few wheels, mounts, and similar goodies into the deal?

Otherwise.. $2,000 is plenty for up to 6" X 18". Ten percent of that budget has tripped-over quite usable SG's. More shops have shed them than a few.

Not far from your neck of the woods, a right-decent 8" X 24" was up for sale on eBay for the better part of the year it took me to talk myself OUT of it!

I'm aware that.. for a volume-production shop, as the factory where I once operated them, our two SG's worked all day only once a week or so. They did the same things all the time so mounted the same wheels (different is why we had two). They easily earned their special grinding room and venting.

Typical job, repair, R&D, or "hobby" shop? They'll want more wheels, dressers, fixturing, grit control, and more time invested in bringing skills and understanding back up to par.

I BELIEVE I am still ahead on time, money, cleaner shop w/r grit, and for DURE ahead on scarce floorspace to send any grinding work I cannot simply avoid the NEED of.. "out".

A(ny) pro grind shop not only has all manner of "infrastrucure" as to wheels, dressers, balancing, coolants, dust collection, workholding.. they HAVE the experienced hand(s) ... and nearly always have more than one size and TYPE of grinder. Blanchard or equivalent. OD, ID, radius.. etc. No Fine WAY I could get close enough to "all around, regardless" to even want to begin..

"Your Mileage May Vary"

Thank you for the reply's!

Thermite I know you are talking sense and I'm really wanting it to play with. None of our production requirements (however meager) need grinding. I'll retire one day in the not distant future and as an "occasional Machinist" I enjoy learning and doing. Our business is in our home with my wife and I as well as two other employees. I only have a total of 900 sq. Ft. for my work shop and what we do needs to be clean. Grinding grit is bad... I still "want one" for occasional play. Most of my "hobby" projects tend to be making things for the shop of assembly fixtures.

I just sent out a drill press spindle for hard chrome and O.D. grinding. I'd like to grind in my old Yuasa camlock mill vise (6") and I'm guessing that will be close or over maxing out any machine I would want.

The harig belongs to a retired friend who is originally from Germany, served an apprenticeship there and spent much of his career making sinker dies at a company in New York who made watches and jewelry. He is talented but I have worked on his motorcycles and have questions about his care of machines. He has a beautiful little Deckle mill that is both horizontal and vertical (double spindle). The grinder has a magnetic sine vise and some other tooling. He offered it for 1500 but I haven't let him know I maybe interested.

The Reid is one of those "it ran when I bought it but I never got it connected to 3 phase" deals asking a thousand but seems willing to negotiate. I'm not trying because I'm mulling over the whole "want one" thing. It sounds like neither are special deals. Another friend wanted to give me one a couple years ago but I just had no interest then.

I don't know what to look for condition wise.

Thanks for the input.

NC Rick said:

Thank you for the reply's!

Thermite I know you are talking sense and I'm really wanting it to play with. None of our production requirements (however meager) need grinding. I'll retire one day in the not distant future and as an "occasional Machinist" I enjoy learning and doing. Our business is in our home with my wife and I as well as two other employees. I only have a total of 900 sq. Ft. for my work shop and what we do needs to be clean. Grinding grit is bad... I still "want one" for occasional play. Most of my "hobby" projects tend to be making things for the shop of assembly fixtures.

I just sent out a drill press spindle for hard chrome and O.D. grinding. I'd like to grind in my old Yuasa camlock mill vise (6") and I'm guessing that will be close or over maxing out any machine I would want.

The harig belongs to a retired friend who is originally from Germany, served an apprenticeship there and spent much of his career making sinker dies at a company in New York who made watches and jewelry. He is talented but I have worked on his motorcycles and have questions about his care of machines. He has a beautiful little Deckle mill that is both horizontal and vertical (double spindle). The grinder has a magnetic sine vise and some other tooling. He offered it for 1500 but I haven't let him know I maybe interested.

The Reid is one of those "it ran when I bought it but I never got it connected to 3 phase" deals asking a thousand but seems willing to negotiate. I'm not trying because I'm mulling over the whole "want one" thing. It sounds like neither are special deals. Another friend wanted to give me one a couple years ago but I just had no interest then.

I don't know what to look for condition wise.

Thanks for the input.

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WHEN I last searched? I found plenty at around $300 to $700 as to basic 5" X 10", 6" x 12", the odd 6" X 18". Nearly ALL were manual-crankers, not power traverse.

Now. CAVEAT: That was before the Trump idea of economics kicked-in. Basically just get TF out of the ROAD and cheerlead from the sidelines.. 'merican's with bills to pay did the rest!

So shops that had been downsizing or folding may no longer be. And/or many SG to be shed have already BEEN kicked out the door?

I'm a cynic about grinding grit - Myer's "grinding room" simply had a massive through-wall fan out to the driveway!

Good news is it worked a treat.

Bad news is the evidence was right there on the tarmac, staff driving through it twice a day until rain (or a HOSE) flushed it away!

Only 1100 SF here, 1/4 of it already walled-off with ablative-gasketed 90-minute fire doors for a stays-clean-mostly tool storage, layout, & metrology zone. No chipmakers or such live in that room.

If I had bought an SG, I'd have wanted to exile it to the carport or a back-yard shed! Neither of those is at all kind to the grinder as to temps and humidity swings -> corrosion.

So it just ain't practical for me.

Nor am I able to dedicate even MORE space for through-wheel coolant to help control where initial discharge of grit goes, and serious debris collection goods and ducting. Space hogs, most are.

Money, too, as they ordinarily cost MORE than the used SG, if only for being more scarce used but still good, and more in demand by more folks for more uses.

A grinder in 900 SF? Best debris collection you can find would be wise. Coolant is usually wise, regardless BUT on a grinder it will be water-emulsion, not neat oil. And now you have a new set of problems for an only once in a while grinder.

Bottom line is you may as well figure you will be running it dry, not wet.


3CW

Like you, several years ago I was looking for a grinder to fit in a shop with limited space. I searched the local Craigslist for over a year before coming across one that fit both my space and my needs. In the time I was looking I literally came across over a dozen machines, but almost all had such a large footprint they weren't practical.

I ended up purchasing a Sanford MG (6" x 12") machine in almost new condition, and for an exceptionally reasonable price. I paid about 1/3 the asking price for the machines you're looking at. The owner had been doing contract work for Mercury Marine and decided it was time to retire.

Over the years I've purchased a considerable number of wheels, a profile grinder, and a dust collection system. I don't use it on a daily basis. Sometimes it sits for a week or more between jobs. However it has proven itself to be a valuable tool. If push came to shove I could probably live without it. However it would extend lead times and cost to some jobs. In my case it's a convenience well worth the cost and floor space.

As an FYI there are several machines listed on our local Craigslist at prices similar to those quoted by thermite.

Here's a picture of the Sanford MG. Over the years it has had some work done on it. It has a new elevation screw, and added oilers for the screw.

Rick,

Let me guess, you've been watching Robin Renzetti? He got me also...

I was in the same boat, a want but no need, then had one reoccurring job that needed grinding so I picked up a Harig 6x18. That job went away, but it earns it's keep in a bunch of ways and I wouldn't want to be without it. We have a bit more space than you but not unlimited, so I pointed it in the same corner as the belt grinder at the welding end of the shop away from the machine tools.

For reference, we paid $1,200 in nice condition with some extra hubs and wheels and such. Not the best deal, but we're east of you away from much industry.

I've been going through the same exercise although I settled on a three axis machine, mainly because i found one from an original owner that was well cared for and had low hours. The problem I ran into was finding machines that the seller would commit to as holding a couple of tenths over a given area. Lots of " Runs good" " Cuts Perfect" but few could tell me what the ways looked like or if the ball ways had been cleaned or mistreated. Hand operated models ranged from the $400-6000 range ( Mitsui were the highest ). It seemed to me that the ball way machines should be fixable and I know there is a company that makes replacement kits for many small machines with really clapped out ways but they run in the 500-1000 range alone. Harig seems most common in the rust belt area. You want the spindle to sound quiet and if you can put a dial on it and on the chuck, you should be able to make a judgement. Buying without testing becomes pretty risky when dealing with SG precision. I'm with you though. I may not use it much or may find I really like it. Lots of people told me there was no use for a Moore jig borer but for the stuff I do, it is one of my favorite machines. Will see how the SG turns out.

Success is fleeting, failure is forever. Dave

beckerkumm said:

Success is fleeting, failure is forever. Dave

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The f**k it is!

You ain't BEATEN .... 'til that very, very last time..

The only one .. when you cannot get back up ... and try again.. because you died trying.... that very last go!

I kid you not.

Think it through.

Whom do you know personally .... as has ever died ... more than ONCE?

Present company excluded. Of course!

PM thing.

Well from personal experience if it does not have power feeds and coolant I do NOT want any part of one !!

JohnEvans said:

Well from personal experience if it does not have power feeds and coolant I do NOT want any part of one !!

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I'm far worse-off.

If it cannot grind 24"?

I cannot be bothered.. stuff still has to be sent OUT anyway.

So it may as well all go out!

And I have a cleaner shop, more room to move .. and probably even more MONEY, given I tend to go anal over tooling-up and wheeling-up "etc".

One less concrete slab hold-down weight ... into which one throws money..

Boats leak, after all...

JohnEvans said:

Well from personal experience if it does not have power feeds and coolant I do NOT want any part of one !!

Click to expand...

I'm sure you are right for some types of work, but for the stuff we do power feeds doesn't make sense. Relieve end mills, stuff like that. Having a small compact machine is nice. I may add coolant at some point.

I have a Taiwanese 6x18 at home that sits most of the time. The coolant tank is empty, it went rancid and I never refilled it, just sits to much. I use it for small OD grinding with a grind all and to sharpen tools on occasion. A few planer blade jobs here and there. I'd swap it out in a heartbeat for a T&C grinder. The T&C would do everything I use the sg for -- better.

FWIW, I added a 6x12 to my home shop and use it about 10X more than I ever thought I would. The main thing is that it's had lube all its life so the ways aren't trashed, and the lead screws aren't ground up. Spindle bearings are usually easy to change, not crazy expensive and can often be cleaned up and re-lubed if not too bad. I like Harig but ended up with an ancient Boyer-Schultz that I had to refurbish a bit. Make sure it comes with a fine pitch magnetic chuck as a new one is crazy expensive.

NC Rick said:

.
Anyhow, I'm watching the local used market and there are two 6x18 machines available to me right now. One is a Harig which belongs to a friend and the other is a Reid on FacePlant marketplace. I don't know how to check if these machines are any good. Really, I don't know where to start. Space is at a premium and I really have to carve out a spot for one to start. I know they are messy like my belt sander and bench grinders.
Rick

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I have owned a lot of manual Harigs and only one Reid so some bias.
The Reid is a more accurate machine but you have to be darn good to know the difference.
The Harig is a heck of a lot easier to move. If you pop the top off the base you can do it with a Mini-van.
It has been so long that I do not remember the Reids oiling system. The Harig has a continuous flowing system that I like. Downside here is that the Harigs eat oil pumps but these easily replaced with Little Giant units but stiil $200.

For sure one thing to check if under power is how the spindle sounds and how long it takes to spin to stop. Make sure the spin to stop time test is done with no wheel on the spindle.
Spindle rebuilds or even just good spindle bearings if you DIY are expensive.
The first thing I do on a SG in this size is move the table full left and right and look at the exposed table ways for condition.

Another that I do not remember is table hand wheel drive ratio. Harigs are very fast.
An example here is compared to a B&S micromaster which is a great SG, Way downside is cranking that handle twice as much to do the same work.
Seems not a big deal at first but your left arm will get bigger than your right and it takes more time to get a part done.
Manual Harigs come in two different table drives, cable and rack/pinion. The cable is smoother but the cable wears out, slips and needs replacement.

The Reid is a more stout machine and better at first cut to size. The Harig is friendlier.
In the 60s to 80s carbide shops had whole long lines of small manual SGs on the floor. I knew some that swore by Harigs, others Reids, and others B&S.

A dedicated shop vac goes a long ways to keeping the "messiness" down.
Bob

Bob,
That is really helpful! Thank you.

I'll tell you that what thermite said is biting because of its reality. The smaller the footprint the better for me.

I'm going to put my head in the sand for a while. I have a Dbit grinder and dressing it's wheel or even the bench grinder wheels is a messy nightmare. I already have 3 shop vacs. Need and want can be different things!