Value of K.O. Lee T&C grinder

Just to set a frame of reference, for those that don't already know/remember, I'm one of the unwashed masses (i.e. the HSMs ), and to make matters worse, I’m a newbie at that. So this is in reference to the value I would get from it. Also of relevance, I've been seriously kicking around getting a Baldor (or knock off) grinder and diamond wheel for sharpening lathe bits at the least, and maybe other things as possible. Looking at that bottomless pit of air spindles and all the other stuff makes this over-kill option look much more palatable. And finally, I’ve got a line on a couple of inexpensive small surface grinders which will be useful for some of the sharpening chores, though more limited AND still requiring significant investment in the air spindles and such.

So, I've found what appears to be a very nice K.O. Lee T&C grinder. It has a bucket and a box full of tooling including air spindle, universal holder/vise thingy, and lots of other tooling I don't recognize. Most all wearing the colors of the grinder, which I take to be original(?) medium/dark blue. My preliminary kicking the tires seems to indicate that everything is smooth and tight, though I didn’t go to much trouble.

First price was nuts IMO, so I discounted it without further consideration. Now he's come way down, and I'm not sure if this is something I should consider. From what I've seen, the tooling is the biggest part of the investment, so maybe I should reconsider?

So, I know nobody can price what it’s “worth” to me, and it’s impossible to price something you haven’t seen. I also know that these are cheap as dirt in the modern machine shop economy, but even if the machines are cheap, folks still seem to be paying premiums for the tooling, and this thing is pretty much loaded. So, just for sanity check, what would you guys price it as maximum fair value *assuming* right down the road AND well equipped in good condition (which I would try to verify within my limited experience under power if this goes forward). And what is the maximum price that would make you say, “just can’t pass that up”. Notice I said maximum price that would cause that reaction (allowing the assumptions stated). Of course most anyone would jump on it for free or $20 or whatever; I'm looking for the MOST it could cost and still make you feel that way.

Any help, no matter how vague, will be appreciated.

Technically I can afford to get both T&C plus the surface grinder, and I know that would be the ideal scenario if I’m going down this road. BUT I have very limited shop space such that having both will create serious cramp issues (not to mention, I’ve got a lathe that HAS to go before either can come home!) AND I really feel like I’ve gone more than a bit over board on machines this year anyway. So I’m a bit uncertain. If it’s a “don’t pass it up!” I will get it and it won’t cause too much pain, otherwise, I think I’ll just go with the surface grinder and make do.

Having spent the day with my K. O. Lee t&c grinder, I can assure you no surface grinder can substitute for a cutter grinder. Getting to odd angles and being able to work the head to achieve certain positions I had to get at today would be absolutely impossible with a surface grinder. Not sure how it doubles as a surface grinder, but I'll find out soon I feel sure.

The decision is which one is of more value to you. I have already managed to sharpen a couple of endmills to perfection, and I'll bet the first to admit I have no idea what I am doing. Once I get it all figured out, I might be able to make beer money a few evenings a week by helping out other guys in the area with dull endmills.

So what's it worth? Which model is it? (wil be on a tag.) Bigger one would be worth more money I think. The universals with the arm are more valuable than the straight tool grinders. Come with wheels? those aren't free. What all are the attachments? get some pics and I can help you identify what it can do, as-is.

I paid $160 for mine, but it was naked. I gave $160 for an ABF, $100 for a univise, traded for a universal index head (probably $150 or so), bought some 5C collets for $30, etc.., etc... The radial attachment goes for $400-500 alone. This should give you an idea of what it costs to tool one up.

If it is loaded, with radial attachment, ABF, collets, wheels, the whole works, a grand is a steal in my opinion.

A K O Lee just sold on thieveBay for the buyitnow of 2995. A member here was a bidder before it went, reservenotmet, pretty well tooled, and so on. Model B709. Valid bid? Unknown.

K O Lee Grinder

It seems I read that was called a universal, I did have a site located that had several parts manuals for different models but it escapes me now; can't find it.

K O Lee Parts List

All I could find was that stuff.

Not much help

Here's a point of reference from two months ago. There was a 1979 hydraulic table KO Lee T&C grinder (the smaller size like a 10x22in IIRC) in pristine condition at a local high school surplus auction. And when I say pristine, it had about an 1/2in of thick dust on the top surfaces with the original cosmoline on it underneath. I honestly don't think it was ever used as the there wasn't any grinding wheels with any of the heads and not a mark anywhere on the surfaces. The tooling included 2 power head spindles, l/r tailstocks, indexing collet holder, tap/die grinding holder, blade vise, universal vise, and the aux. grinding table with brackets-all covered in greasy cosmoline. The only accessory I did not see was an air spindle. The only issues on the machine that I saw were that they pinched the hydraulic lines when they palletized it and there was the typical splash/crud build up on the bottom edge from having a mop apply polish to a shop floor every few months. Darn thing went for $2K. Pop didn't want it so I had to pass as it's his money. I KNOW it is worth more than that but... Still a little peaved that I had to pass.

Maybe I'm venting more than helping you but deals are out there. And like my dad said- "I'll never get 2K worth of work out of that grinder so don't buy it". Worth is relavent in that sense.

Lca078, that quote is exactly why I haven't gone after one of those $500 radial attachments (but I'd have sure taken the one I missed for $105 dammit).

I have almost paid for the grinder itself after only two days of use. I sharpened about a half dozen endmills, mostly pretty good size. These were all name brand USA made cutters. Figuring they are on average $20 a pop, that's $120. It won't take many more to have the whole works paid off, just sharpening my own cutters... especially when I get to a couple of big shell mills.

If I can start making a few bucks sharpening cutters for others, I might be able to justify a radial fixture.

my 2c - a decently (not super) tooled KO Lee in good shape, I'd drop $1000 and not bat an eye. Beyond that I'd blink, probably not walk...

OK Mike, by now we all now you missed the radius doohickey for $105. Think that's bad? Some clod from Alabama bought a KO Lee right out from under my nose for $160 One week I don't search....

Getting back to the topic, sort of, it seems when the T&C vs. SG discussion has come up in the past, opinion has favored the SG if you can't have both. I went with the SG since it seemed to fit my needs better, and a deal on the littlest DoAll came along.

On point: BadDog, assuming the T&C will do for you, under $1K I'd be loading that baby. If the ways are good and you got the jack, I don't know that I'd blink at twice that for too long if it's all pretty.

The usual conundrum about waiting for the super gloatable deal to come along, or spend a bit more and get to work now. This year I've picked up few things I wouldn't have, but the price and condition suggested I do the deal. One other machine I'm getting was way out my normal price range, but had been looking for years, and it's condition is better than I've got now, so creative financing comes into play, and the shop will progress.

Heck my whole shop is a bottomless pit always needing more tooling, not just the grinders.

Somewhere there's a Cinci No. 2 or a B&S 10 with my name on it, and a pile of goodies stored neatly in boxes....

Good luck,
Rob

It gets worse Rob... If I had known my trailer was going to be empty (a friend had borrowed it for his car and returned it the day before I left), I passed on the big VN cylindrical grinder the guys with the K. O. Lee ALSO had... for $100.

(Still pissed about that radial fixture.)

Thanks to all! This information is perfect. Anyone got a site or something that will help me pin down the various versions? Something like the UK site for lathes and mills? I'll see if I can get up there tomorrow and take some pics and notes. Sounds like it may be in the "better get it range", pending more investigation of course.

One nice thing would be the ability to pick up the nearly free worn/chipped/burnt mills and cutters to sharpen them for personal use, as well as the already mentioned benefit of making it pay for itself sharpening cutters for friends (if I had any ).

Went back and got pics. But bad news, the air spindle is gone along with one box of tooling. Turns out there was an indexer that must have been burried in that second box. At least I found index plates in the remaining box along with an indexer style center (the gray one). So, I passed on it. And looking at it again, it looks like it may actaully be intended as a really small surface grinder? Not sure what to call it. Anyway, this is all that remains (unless they find the rest).

Before I retired I had a chance to buy a #2 Cincinnati Grinder which is similar to use. We had 2 K.O. Lee surface grinders in our department and they did not seem to be as good quality wise as a Cincinnati was but that was my opinion. We used to do a lot of different tools years ago that had radius on them and they were a pain to set up on a radius fixture. There were times when it would take six to eight hours to get a radius to come out right with Cutter Grinders that had 20 or more years experience. If you have many tools to do with the same radius or the radius must be a exact then it might be worth doing. Later we got a cnc tool grinder that made it easier. The easiest way to put a radius on a tool is to do it with a carbide end grinder and a tool block. A square tool block with a hole exactly on center for 2 or 4 flute end mills can put a radius on a tool in a fraction of the time that it can be set up on a t&c grinder. You will still have to check your radius in a comparator to see if you did it right. You have to set the table on the carbide grinder at your clearance angle and put the tool in the block and tighten down a set screw to keep it from turning.To make the radius come out right you have start a little less than 90 degrees and finish a little less than o degrees. I hope this helps a little. A T&C grinder can be very useful for sharpening the ends of endmills and carbide drills,lathe stick tools and using it to cut carbide to length with a cut off wheel.

Baddog, You never got to price. That appears to be a late BA 960 Lee, judging by size of the column in the rubber boot. It also has the end guards supplied for wet grinding. It has most of the stuff you would need to get going other than an indexer for fluted tools. I have been using K O Lee grinders since 1947. The one I presently have is a 1945Model B600 and has been rescraped by me many times. It was a basket case when I got it in the early '60s. It really is the most used Machine tool I have, because it feeds the other machines. The Bridgeport is supposed to be about the most ubiquitous machine in a shop. The only thing I have not tried is to use mine for a lathe, but the Lee is the moreso. Both for use limited only by your imagination. Wilder the better!. I do all of my squaring up and smooth finishing on the grinder limited only by the X travel of 10" Most of the time I wont even set up the indexer, choosing instead to use collet index blocks for the end of end mills if indeed I don't simply do them by hand on the bench grinder using
collet blocks and finishing with an E Z Lap diamond " file". I do have a 5 X 10 magnetic chuck for surface grinding and a J & S radius/ tangent wheel dresser. I also have a manual feed Surface grinder which will grind wet, but that lee gets the work. In many large shops, no matter how beat, in a downsizing it is one of the last to go. They are just too damned handy for the quick stuff. You will find the Lee fixtures on just about any other make machine. One man can lift them. They are still in business. Other than Cincy, Who else in U S can say that any more.
Burn the rubber- Go get it before they peddle off the other stuff! tmb.

It has either a Uni-vise or universal head on the table, it is hard to tell. It is pretty well equipped, and appears in good shape.

It all comes down to price, and whether you really want a T&C grinder.

Well, I've been trying to avoid his price, mainly to keep from clouding the water, so to speak. I wanted real opinions, not reactions. But what the heck, I'll give up the price since it appears the price discussion is over. He wants $1000 for it. Originally he was "firm" on $3000 so I never looked at it twice till now. With the air spindle and other box of tools, I was thinking it was worth the price. Now, not so sure.

It is a small uni-vise on the table. There is no universal head.

Tomas:
Great info, thank you very much. It's nice to see confirmation of my thoughts that it could be used as a surface grinder. I had heard that some T&Cs could be used that way, others not so well. Oh, and it comes with the tank and pump for wet grinding.

Uhhh, yes it is worth a grand, even without the goodies, those make it an irresistable deal. It's still a deal considering the condition and the stuff that comes with it. This cutter grinding is really addictive, trust me.

Even with just the stuff in the pics? The air spindle and indexer along with other stuff (anything not shown) appears to be gone... Seems that it's almost useless without the air spindle (or at least some kind of spindle), no?

The air spindles are nice fixtures, but are not the be-all & end-all. A simple 5C spindex will do almost anything an air spindle will do for smaller (under 2" flute length) end mills. It is just not as easy. The key is to have a good T&C grinder to begin with

Bummer on the air spindle and indexer being gone. Looks good otherwise, fair amount of widgets.

Give KO Lee a call and get some prices on new ones; might put in perspective a bit.

Wouldn't call it a steal, but I wouldn't be ashamed to say I paid that for it if I needed it. Just have to take some time finding deals on whatever else you want for it. Damn univises push $150 in ebay alone, though the new imports may slow that down.

Fixtures do ship cheaper than a whole machine. And hey, your money spends pretty easy.

As a last note, if I had some assurance the ways weren't totally shot, and the missing parts turned up, I'd think pretty seriously about having a truck fetch it if the selling price was $1K.

Rob

It's nice to see confirmation of my thoughts that it could be used as a surface grinder

Click to expand...

Some T&C's can be used as light surface and cylindrical OD grinders (I'm sure there are ID attachments) which is why I really wanted the KO Lee I mentioned earlier. That KO Lee has a fully hyraulic table, which most t&c's don't. Call me lazy but I really don't want a manual surface or cylindrical grinder. Anyway, we don't want to regrind endmills but every once in a while we needed a small precision cylindrical grinder. Right now we toss the Dumore on the lathe and make do. For special bits, Pop makes me grind 'em by hand. Says it makes me a better machinist than to dial in a few angles on a universal vise and hit the on button.


I wouldn't fret too much about passing on that deal. There's more, and better deals, around the corner. Patience, grasshopper, patience.

I'm not seeing the hydraulic table there. Looks like it has the coolant guards, but I don't see the pump, lines, or controls. Looks just like the table on my B360.

One thing to consider on this machine at that price is LOCATION. You can lay hands on it, wiggle the table, hear the spindle, feel the motor... not an Ebay pig-in-a-poke. And the shipping is going to be real reasonable. These are light enough to easily carry in a 1/2 ton pickup. Take the machine off the stand and you can carry it across town in a car trunk if you have a hoist to load and unload. Definite considerations for only a grand.