Water in Oil Diesel Cast Engine: Do Composites(ie K&W) Work for Block Repair?
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  1. #1
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    Default Water in Oil Diesel Cast Engine: Do Composites(ie K&W) Work for Block Repair?

    I have an Iseki tractor, it was brought into the United States by AGCO when they bought the White trade name. The tractor was an evaluation unit. Eventually they decided to import the tractor first as a White Farm Boss and then as their mainstream Massey Ferguson.

    This one though, has an engine they decided to forgo. It has the 4FC1.

    While moving some stuff in the shop, I had the temp shoot up on the temp gauge and before I could do anything, I had some steam. I killed it. I checked the oil, and it had water in it. A lot of water. I looked around the block and I can see a 3cm external crack or casting flaw. I might have seen it weep water, it may have been condensation

    My experience with cast iron welding and repair is that eventually the repair shits the bed if the engine sees extensive use.

    This thing will see hours upon hours. It is 58hp at the PTO. It is 4WD. It is about the size and weight of a Ford 6000 series tractor. It isn't just front wheel assist, it is true 4wd.

    Is there any point in disassembling the tractor's sheetmetal, and then pulling the head to see if the head gasket is gone ? I have a spare head gasket.

    Does anyone have any experience in using composite block repairs ? I spoke to a guy who used to heat them and weld or braze(Depending on block material). He said I ought to try some K&W Block and Head Repair. He said he'd seen the stuff under a comparator and if you follow the directions, it will seal up and he said the fiberous material coagulates and stops up the crack. He said he was actually recommending it. What he got me came from an industrial supply and is in a grey bottle, it is a little bigger than what comes in the green bottle sold at some auto supplies.

    Has anyone tried one of the modern composites for block repair ? He said that this is basically a type of plastic material that under heat, pressure, and water will force itself into a crack and it builds up a matrix. He showed me a section of block that was cut out that had been repaired in a CAT C2.2 under his comparator and it appears he wasn't bs'ing. He isn't a salesman for the company.

    I'm wondering if I should just take off the gear drive from this industrial engine that's in it, swap it in place of a timing belt driven engine, and do that.

    Pouring a liquid in and trying it is just a waste of the $60 in liquid and I can use some Rotella I've drained out of other engines. If it works, I don't have to do an engine change. If it doesn't work, well then, I've got to do the gear drive change and the engine swap.

    My questions boil down to this:
    1. Is there any point in using a composite repair material ? This is a liquid that is added to the water, it heats up and seeps through the crack. You have to perform an oil change, but if it seals it, it seals it.
    2. Before I use that composite repair, should I pull the head and if the head gasket is also gone, replace it as well ?
    3. For total time invested, am I better off swapping in another engine ? Here is minimum what must be done: I have an engine to go in, but I will need to test to see which one is best(I have a couple), then change out the gear drive to get rid of the timing belt on the engine, and do the swap. The gear change is enough to make you cry. I've done it on a C240 which is similar, and it made me want to jump off a building. I have my FEL off it. To pull the head, requires the sheetmetal be removed, so I'd be into that if it comes to changing engines.

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    A few years ago (5?) I put irontite in a car that had an antifreeze smell inside sometimes and it is holding pressure and no longer can I smell the antifreeze. The irontite was highly recomended by the auto parts store and they said to follow directions to the letter.
    Irontite Products Inc Home Page
    They make several different formulas, look for the one that fits your need.

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    I'm not an expert on these products, but if I had a block with a known crack, at the least I'd drill the end of the crack (the real ends, not what's easily visible) with a tap drill for 1/4 NPT, then use a cast iron pipe plug coated with a flexible sealant to anchor the ends of the crack.

    After than I'd look at what options I had for sealing the rest of the crack.

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    If the motor is indirect injection,ie..swirl chamber ,then there is a very good chance the head is cracked......these kinds of cracks are near impossible to repair............and external crack on the block is often caused by a "cold shut" in the casting.......the Perkins 4/236 motors were notorious for this,always in the same place ..........metal stitching is the best IMHO,but ,but I have seen some very old brazed block repairs completely successful....probably done in a furnace.........hillbilly repair is a tin patch ,silastic seal,held on with self tappers.....often successful,if you relieve the radiator pressure ,if any..........finally,any crack that blows out water and boils is a cracked head..........checked the parts book,4FC1 is an Isuzu,2l,used in vans etc....1981/83.....so its old.(ish)

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    Pull head, check for flatness, if warped, have it surfaced, then re-install with new head gasket. Does this engine have wet liners, if so it could be a bad O-ring. Or it could be a crack in liner, a crack in cylinder wall if plain block, or a crack in head somewhere. If head is flat have it pressure tested, if it passes that re-install and drop pan, put cooling system under pressure and look inside block and try to figure out where its leaking.

    Drain crankcase and replace oil, top off the radiator and leave cap loose so it cannot build pressure, then run it. If oil is full of water again you will most likely not get it to seal with an additive, if no water in oil you might get lucky. I've had success with block sealers, and failures, its a crap shoot.

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    Cracked swirl chamber heads are not repairable......unless its a Caterpillar.............lots of money is spent on them,and its all wasted..........If the heads cracked ,there will be coolant in cylinder,and corrosion marks too.........a wet liner cavitiated through is a possibility ,again a rusty mark will be visible where the leak is,probably seen from the sump........leaking liner seals are not likely,that normally happens immediately the liner is installed.,but a possibility in an old engine.....Note....often there is a weep hole in the block alongside each seal area ,which will show leakage first.Not likely without massive corrosion.There are motors notorious for each type of leak........can you buy a replacement Chinese head?.....OK and the cheapest option.

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    metal stitching is the best IMHO
    Lock-n-stitch is immediately what came to mind when I read the thread title, seems like the best "long term" solution.

    Check the video below, gives a very good description of the process.

    YouTube

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    Stitching works on the outside...seen a big hole where a rod went out with a piece of steel stitched in........wasnt in the water though,just oil splash..........nothing works on diesel heads,except the system KC used on Cats and GMs.......the whole round cylinder area is cut out and an insert welded in by electron beam welding,the joint in the ports sealed by a extra long valve seat bridging the join.........Cat precombustion chambers screw into the head face,and GMs have a copper sleeve to seal the water out.

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    I have had success with K&W. Follow the instructions to the letter. It has worked on gas and Diesel for me.

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    I've used blockweld successfully. If you can verify that there is no pressure from the combustion chamber to the cooling system, and that the oil is not getting in to the cooling system, it should work. To use it you need to bypass the radiator and heater core temporarily and bring the engine up to temp. I think Evans Coolant works with a non pressurized, open cooling system. Dunno if that would help anything in this instance but something to keep in mind.

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    Before I got all out in the weeds with an engine mod and replacement, I would remove the sheet metal and suck the head off that critter, have a look, and have the head checked. If I were a betting man I would say your only issue is a head gasket of which has rotted out from between the head and block. This is not uncommon on engines of which the cooling system has had less than stellar maintenance. Most engines I can think of in that size range do not have wet liners and there is really no reason for the block to crack on the inside for no reason, unless it has some unknown history behind it. Most all blocks crack from freezing not from being hot but can warp, heads just the opposite. The gasket can rot out between a water port and oil drain and put water in the oil without the head being damaged. I am not and have never been a proponent of mechanic in a can. This is worth what you paid fer it.

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    Pics....

    If it was mine the head would come off, something went wrong at some point and I hate doing things twice. Really really if you plan to use it endlessly fix it right once and enjoy it.

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    You have at least two cracks. One crack lets water out of the block into the air. You have another that lets water into the oil. that is either just dripping water into the sump or water and oil is mixing inside the block passages. I suppose you could have one big crack that connects several passages. I would check compression before pulling the head.
    bil lD

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    Any connection between a cylinder or combustion chamber and the water jacket will produce pressure/air which is visible in the tank of the cooling system. A coolant check using the proper detection fluid will also indicate gas in the coolant. Barring these indicators a leak would be more likely between the water jacket and a oil return passage in the head to block junction...just like Dieseldoc pointed out.

    Stuart

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    All the foregoing points to one thing......remove the head,and see whats wrong......Costs nothing,and if its neither fixable or replaceable,then think on another motor............or do what the farmers do......fill with water for a run,drain the system at stop......

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    I had a pretty severe leak of coolant into the oil in a 7.3L Powerstroke diesel (very visible clouds of white smoke, a couple of liters of coolant per hour in easy driving). I replaced the o-rings in the oil cooler and that didn't help so I assumed it was the head gasket. Put the Rislone fibrous stuff in and I have plugged the leak, its been about 500km of moderate driving. The truck has 390,000km and is worn out in every way so I am doing this just as an experiment to see how long that stuff keeps the leak plugged.
    If it were my tractor I would put the fibrous stuff in rad and fill the crankcase with free used oil.

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    Fundamental difference.......more modern engines are direct injection,no chambers ,so the heads dont crack......but modernish also have the MLS head gasket,and these leak when the plastic sealant between the layers fails........and this is why the liquid additive sealants work with modernish engines...........these MLS gaskets almost never blow,they are too strong,dont leak much compression either,just coolant ........and modern coolant is corrosive in open air,and of course is 1/2 glycol that sugar coats engines till they seize.....Go into a car repair shop ,and the smell of cooked glycol is overpowering......must be 70% of their work now.

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    "Mechanic in a Can". To touch on the OP's question of block sealers. In my view these may be acceptable to postpone the agony. Something to think about is that we used to hear of injecting saw dust and banana peels and whatever in gear boxes to make them be quiet for a while, black pepper in radiators,to stop leaks and what have you. You may get away with that in a machine which has vast tolerances like, the old junk we used to drive. Keep in mind that the purpose of the K&W miracle, liquid glass or what not is to plug a hole. In our modern engines tolerances have become very close, technology has squeezed more HP per pound of weight than ever before thereby allowing for smaller engines sizes and consequently the parts that make them up. It is easy for these sealers and crankcase additives to seal passages and foul radiators to the point of either ruining them or causing other problems. These sealers do not know the difference between an small leak and a "engineered in" manufactured passage. Any person out there that has had to have the COMPLETE fuel system replaced on their Dodge or GM diesels account of "contamination" is aware.
    Last edited by Dieseldoc; 05-17-2019 at 11:28 AM.

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    I have never used one,mainly cause Im not paying $60 for a can of anything.............but I do know of new vehicle agencies that dump these sealants into every new vehicle they sell ,to avoid expensive warranty work for coolant leaks......and at least one brand where the manufacturer has advised dealers to add a sealant on delivery.....And I can tell you Ive seen everything ,including a cooling system full of cooked tadpoles......filled with ditchwater.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SBAER View Post
    I had a pretty severe leak of coolant into the oil in a 7.3L Powerstroke diesel (very visible clouds of white smoke, a couple of liters of coolant per hour in easy driving). I replaced the o-rings in the oil cooler and that didn't help so I assumed it was the head gasket. Put the Rislone fibrous stuff in and I have plugged the leak, its been about 500km of moderate driving. The truck has 390,000km and is worn out in every way so I am doing this just as an experiment to see how long that stuff keeps the leak plugged.
    If it were my tractor I would put the fibrous stuff in rad and fill the crankcase with free used oil.
    7.3's don't fail head gaskets... injector cups.


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