What do machinist learn in school these days?

First few paragraphs is some insight to why I'm asking.

I've gotten a few G-code programs written on a lathe. However they're simple. G84 is messed up as far as I'm concerned about that POS machine. (tapping left handed for right hand tap?) I just don't get to actually really program it. Earlier this month I did which is the first time I even close to being able to program for it. Before that I relearned basic G-code for the 3rd time 1 month before that, to hopefully program a simple part on it... It went on another machine. Started to forget G-code, again... Until I had to remember what I knew without my notebook, earlier this month. Although it wasn't forced on me, but because I had down time and the part needed to be ran eventually and I wanted to program.

I essentially can't calculate stuff for a NPT thread or any kind of chamfer. Haven't quite figured out a G76, especially a NPT thread. I can do a bit in Fusion 360 CAD for my 3D Printer, I bought it hoping to jump over to CAM and then start programing where I work and climb the latter/chain. We have a guy that does CAD/CAM and a tiny bit of G-code. Has me wondering if I can do the same.

What skills do new machinist have, coming out of school? Is it CAD/CAM only or some combination of that and G-code? Conversational? Are they all brushed up on their trig and mathematics? Machine specific skills? Lathe or mill? I guess I'm trying to compare what knowledge someone from a trade school/college has vs hands on and self taught.

I'm wanting to try and push through some Titan's videos and then CAD/CAM some parts I know of over the rest of the week and present 3DPrinted parts and see if they have any interest or finally give up on trying to have a career with CNC. (CNC is cool to me but I feel like I'm about done with it. The work I do with it anyways)

Thanks,
Higgins909

If you read what you just wrote does it make any sense to you?

I would likely not hire anyone out of a machining trade school. I'd rather hire a farm kid with solid aptitude.

Ask for a part and the g code that made it along with the tool list. Grab a manual and figure out what each line of code does to make the part.

Probably not the best but was the quickest way for me to learn. Start with a simple part then go from there.

No offence but people that are proficient in this type of work typically have high functioning memory retention. If this is your third time learning it and you struggled without your notebook maybe it's not for you. However ambition and hard work can overcome. That being said, learn G-code. I program 90% in CAM but I don't let a new guy anywhere near it until they have a good foundation in G-code.

AJ H said:

No offence but people that are proficient in this type of work typically have high functioning memory retention. If this is your third time learning it and you struggled without your notebook maybe it's not for you. However ambition and hard work can overcome. That being said, learn G-code. I program 90% in CAM but I don't let a new guy anywhere near it until they have a good foundation in G-code.

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Maybe he wasn't taught correctly.
I remember (WAYYY back in the day) in Trig class, I just couldn't understand wtf the teacher was telling us. Then someone said it in a different way and everything clicked.

usually schools have online where they list exactly what they teach. most schools teach general knowledge.
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be aware many need training on specific machines and company ways of doing things. easily you can be a expert on a cnc machine and be totally incapable of running the one next to it. literally not even able to turn machine on without training. many times even with a 2000 page operator manual there are still some things not in the manuals that more senior employees figured out.
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thats why many places have "procedures" or "work instructions" explaining things. CAGS or corrective action guidelines are a short procedure if machine not running a series of steps to do or check to get it running again. its often not in the "manuals" its just what was done in the past and somebody wrote it down to save time if problem happened again
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many jobs a machinist follows a "work instruction" saying what to do or often what not to forget to do. or often it in order of what needs to be done. some things done too late need to be done earlier, hard to describe. like assembling a machine, later parts installed might block access to get hands in to install parts that needed to be installed earlier.

I can only speak for myself, but yes, when I came out of my 4 year apprenticeship (8K hours of OJT and 2K unpaid classroom hours), I could trig anything you wanted me to, I could write G-Code fairly proficiently, even if I sometimes had to look up the exact arguments to pass along. Not flawless G-Code, but close enough that when I put it in a machine and it did something wrong, I could go "Oh yeah, duh, it goes the other way" or whatever.

I was fairly proficient at all the basic manual machines in the shop (lathe, knee mill, surface grinder, bandsaw, bench grinder, broom, mop, etc), and had done plenty of setups that weren't just "clamp a block in the vise". I could take a drawing and material and make a part from start to finish. I'd done some programming of our Doosan lathe, and the Haas mills w/ 4th axis and run my own parts. I could setup, troubleshoot, and edit programs for a Swiss lathe. I could read a program to determine which tool created which feature, and how to comp that tool should the need arise.

I knew when to ask questions and when to keep my mouth shut. I had a notebook full of questions I'd asked in the past, so I wouldn't have to ask in the future.

So while a 4 year apprenticeship is a little more advanced than a 2yr degree, or certificate, I'd say that yes, when you graduate, you should at least be able to read a print, make a part on the manuals, and read and write basic g-code. And you DEFINITELY better be able to do basic Trig, SOH CAH TOA and circles/radii and such. You should know about SFM and how to use it to program. You should know about chipload and how to apply it to tools. You should know basics of machinability of various materials (i.e, rough starting points for basic steels, stainless steels, plastics, etc). You should know how a tool or table moves through cartesian space and have a basic understanding of X/Y/X positive and negative, and how that affects your part. (I work with guys who still can't remember which way Y+ moves the tool).

I dunno, lots of stuff you should know.

TeachMePlease said:

I can only speak for myself, but yes, when I came out of my 4 year apprenticeship (8K hours of OJT and 2K unpaid classroom hours), I could trig anything you wanted me to, I could write G-Code fairly proficiently, even if I sometimes had to look up the exact arguments to pass along. Not flawless G-Code, but close enough that when I put it in a machine and it did something wrong, I could go "Oh yeah, duh, it goes the other way" or whatever.

I was fairly proficient at all the basic manual machines in the shop (lathe, knee mill, surface grinder, bandsaw, bench grinder, broom, mop, etc), and had done plenty of setups that weren't just "clamp a block in the vise". I could take a drawing and material and make a part from start to finish. I'd done some programming of our Doosan lathe, and the Haas mills w/ 4th axis and run my own parts. I could setup, troubleshoot, and edit programs for a Swiss lathe. I could read a program to determine which tool created which feature, and how to comp that tool should the need arise.

I knew when to ask questions and when to keep my mouth shut. I had a notebook full of questions I'd asked in the past, so I wouldn't have to ask in the future.

So while a 4 year apprenticeship is a little more advanced than a 2yr degree, or certificate, I'd say that yes, when you graduate, you should at least be able to read a print, make a part on the manuals, and read and write basic g-code. And you DEFINITELY better be able to do basic Trig, SOH CAH TOA and circles/radii and such. You should know about SFM and how to use it to program. You should know about chipload and how to apply it to tools. You should know basics of machinability of various materials (i.e, rough starting points for basic steels, stainless steels, plastics, etc). You should know how a tool or table moves through cartesian space and have a basic understanding of X/Y/X positive and negative, and how that affects your part. (I work with guys who still can't remember which way Y+ moves the tool).

I dunno, lots of stuff you should know.

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I promptly forgot most of my trig right after school, BUT I more or less started with cad in my second year or so. Funny thing though, I knew guys who could do trig blindfolded, but were terrible machinist overall. But ya, math in general should IMO be a very strong suit for a machinist. I got the "we are all switching to metric" spiels in school, but never really *learned* it until I got more into programming and cad cam. Although to this day if you give me a metric feed rate I draw a blank for ipm

Very helpful to -
A) know how to convert metric-inch
B) have common metric sizes memorized, and inch equivalents in metric

Mike1974 said:

I promptly forgot most of my trig right after school, BUT I more or less started with cad in my second year or so. Funny thing though, I knew guys who could do trig blindfolded, but were terrible machinist overall. But ya, math in general should IMO be a very strong suit for a machinist. I got the "we are all switching to metric" spiels in school, but never really *learned* it until I got more into programming and cad cam. Although to this day if you give me a metric feed rate I draw a blank for ipm

Very helpful to -
A) know how to convert metric-inch
B) have common metric sizes memorized, and inch equivalents in metric

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I always convert! I refuse to think in commie millimeters!

There's countries that use the metric system and there's countries that put men on the moon.

AJ H said:

I always convert! I refuse to think in commie millimeters!

There's countries that use the metric system and there's countries that put men on the moon.

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Lmao....and there’s countries that blew up billion dollar spacecraft because they screwed up the conversion!


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AJ H said:

I always convert! I refuse to think in commie millimeters!

There's countries that use the metric system and there's countries that put men on the moon.

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Every physicist I do work for works in metric. Most of them are kind enough to convert it to inch before giving it to me because I gave them the whole speech.... not a speech on how metric sucks but how it is dangerous to work in 2 different units of measure and my shop and I are set up for inch

Coming out of school people should know the basics and it's enough to be dangerous. They learn how to hand code basic shapes, not necessarily having all the G&M codes memorized but know where to look them up. Trig you'll need to know, or at least get a trig app and know how to use it. For me its faster to open an app and type it in then try to remember the formula because I don't use it often enough. They learn simple setups and how to do some manual machining as well as CNC. They have lessons in CAD & CAM. Programs teach more or less depending on what certificate/degree you're after and what school you're going to.

The biggest thing is not necessarily being able to memorize everything, but know how to find the info you need. Get yourself a machinists handbook. A G&M code guide for the machines your on(most are universal but some aren't). As mentioned, watch the code while the machines running and use your G&M code guide to find out what's going on.

Knowing how to program is great and all but if you don't understand feeds, speeds, and tool engagement your programs are going to suck.

Machinist school, ah yes use to be the first tool you saw was a broom, then a hammer, chisel, and file to make a square. They don't do that anymore sad really without hard to do, muscle memory does wonders to a skilled machinist. Knowing how to do it with your hands gave you a sense of pride. Getting a touchy-feely grasp of working machinery tuff to do punching a button. In this day and age, you going to have to get deeper to understand the process. Banging a keyboard watching the computer running a simulation is "meh" ok.

I remember what I use and forget what I don't. That goes for any kind of computer language. IMO, you need to work with this stuff on a regular basis if you're going to get good at it. Just doing something a couple times a month won't cut it. I'm not sure machinists do math, at least as a mathematician would think of it. Mostly they do arithmetic and some trig. I keep a reference taped to the wall and it's sufficient.

For Garwood and AJ H,
I can make sense of it a couple ways. That I should have given up a long time ago or I should do it NOW and see how it goes. Like scojen mentioned, I'm not jumping right to it, but I'm not starting from zero I guess. I've been working here almost 3 years, started as a temp worker doing misc work and have been on lathes almost exclusively for the past 2~ years. I am a twenty something young and dumb. One to two years ago the owners finally replaced a broken machine with a real dumpster fire, brand new too.

It almost sat for a whole year because no one could program it. I'm possibly the 2nd best programmer out of 3 people that can program it. I've spent that time ripping out hair (barely figuratively) trying to figure out the Conversational language and then abandoning that dumpster fire for G-code and then realizing some mistakes but that the Conversational is still garbage. Then a new guy came along but isn't too much better than me and I'm spilling the beans on what I know making me feel like I wasted my time. I've printed out manuals and "studied" multiple manuals just to understand the basics of this junker.

It's that I've relearned the basics maybe every .5-1.0 years hoping I could actually get some time with the machine and I do not. Recently I've relearned for the 3rd time and then a month goes by and then I get that tiny chance to actually sit and program, while having to mentally recall the codes that I was not that familiar with it the first place. It does not help that the G=code does not work like the manual says. (One of the problems with machine)

The machine is a Mitsubishi LT-350, M70 controller. The reasons that it is such polished turd would be too long of a rant. But it's a HAAS wanna be, or a half assed POS HAAS. One time I tried to take advice from a coworker that said to learn a machine I actually get to run, so I start leaning the Mazatrol Conv. language for the lathe and that same guy then discourage me the next Monday after trying to look into it on the weekend... I discourage too easily.

I 3DPrint with metric and am getting a bit too comfortable with it. I can only convert with a calculator though. I work with inches. The plan right now is to learn Fusion CAM and then 3D print parts and try to CAM some programs and maybe run a part on the lathe and then present directly to the owners. Which is hard because they don't go in the CNC part of the shop that much, this year so far.

Comparing a Mitsu and Haas is flat out insane, not even close to the same category. Just cause you struggle with it doesn't make it a piece of shit. While many guys don't care for Mitsu controls, they are very capable and not that difficult once your learn the quirks they have.

To be honest it sounds like the blind leading the blind as far as programing goes.

Hardplates said:

Comparing a Mitsu and Haas is flat out insane, not even close to the same category. Just cause you struggle with it doesn't make it a piece of shit. While many guys don't care for Mitsu controls, they are very capable and not that difficult once your learn the quirks they have.

To be honest it sounds like the blind leading the blind as far as programing goes.

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I was thinking that this Mitu is = to a Haas ST-10. M70 vs Haas control. Shop has 4~ Haas mills. I do wish they bought a ST lathe instead.

It's got a lot of problems if you ask me. 90%~ are related to the M70 controller. G codes that are supposed to exist, don't (according to computer simulator anyways) and G codes that don't exist do. G codes don't work right. The position counters don't show tool position correctly. Trace/Graphics/simulate is messed up. There is a M44 M code that is unique to this very machine as far as I know and is not documented anywhere and is required to actually run the program and even if you put it in you could be having a hard time and find that you just had to input it a 2nd time even though you already did it once. The tool eye was setup wrong so it relies on a set of programs to teach the tools, so if we ever lose one of those programs, we're no longer using the tool eye. If you teach it like you should by JOGing while in the right sub menu it will teach the tool way off. The coolant pump has to be taken out to pull the tank out, so you can clean the filters, which has not been done a single time and I'm sure it's tragic. This is all I can remember at the moment, but the majority.

Sounds like the shop you work at is a dumpster fire not the machine. To pony up the money for a machine and then let it sit instead of sending someone for training or bringing in someone with experience is insane.

Higgins909 said:

I am a twenty something young and dumb. I'm possibly the 2nd best programmer out of 3 people that can program it. I've spent that time ripping out hair
It's that I've relearned the basics maybe every .5-1.0 years hoping I could actually get some time with the machine and I do not.. It does not help that the G=code does not work like the manual says. (One of the problems with machine)
I discourage too easily.
The plan right now is to learn Fusion CAM and then 3D print parts and try to CAM some programs and maybe run a part on the lathe and then present directly to the owners. Which is hard because they don't go in the CNC part of the shop that much, this year so far.

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Sounds like you have the right attitude and will succeed in time. My advice would be: Find a guru in the same field (which is what you're actually trying to do now).
Can't you speak to the owners? They ought to be very happy to employ and support a person with such good qualities. If not, bide your time and find other employers.
Most of us understand your troubles. Keep in mind that the people writing the manuals may not actually work with the machines and so are not confronted with their mistakes!
Just my .02 Euros,
fusker

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