What inserts for machining welded surface on horizontal mill

Webley91 · Mar 18, 2014

I have this job coming up. These hydraylic cylinders have had the end faces of the bores shown in the photo built up with weld due to wear.

What type of inserts / cutting speed / feeds would you recommend for this? I am intending to do this on a horizontal mill with a dual side / face cutter. This way the cylinder only needs to be set up once, and both sides can be machined. I spoke to my boss about getting a tipped cutter in for this job. We usually deal with Sandvik, so ideally I would be looking for a Sandvik insert.

I have tried machining the faces with a HSS side / face cutter but the finish is very poor and it is very hard on the cutting teeth.

They have been welded using a MIG Welder. As far as I know, standard wire has been used (eg nothing hard).

To give an idea of scale, the bore with the welded faces is roughly 50mm diameter. I haven't actually measured it.

Thanks for any info.

mo8414 · Mar 18, 2014

I would go with something carbide for sure. weld is real hard on cutters. your going to have to mess around with feed rate and speed until you can get it cutting nice. Usually smaller diameter cutters(1/2") will give you a better finish on difficult details. You can run them pretty fast and take a very light cut maybe only a few thousandths for a finish cut

stephen thomas · Mar 18, 2014

Can you do the whole thing from one side with a boring and facing head?
Does not address insert type, but only one needed for top and bore, second for the bottom facing tool.

smt

starbolin · Mar 19, 2014

The weld can take a terrible toll on whatever cutter you use. The hardness can vary all over the map and there can be slag inclusions. I've cut MIG welds ( tried to anyway ) that chewed up carbides like I was going at them with a wood stick. I've always single pointed them for that reason. You only chip one insert at a time. They aren't all bad, if done by a welder that knows what he is doing they cut like butter - you can't tell the result from the original material.

Were I to use a multi-toothed cutter I'd use my round-insert face mill. When the inserts get nicked just turn them a little. Try to get under the surface, if the welder left any room, and pray he knew what he was doing and pray that he used a wire with some nickle in it. Sorry I don't have a Sandvik number for you but anything for an interrupted cut that is not ridiculously expensive should be fine. It helps to know how much build up the welder left for you and pick the largest cutter nose radius that will still get you under any skin on the weld.

Good luck!

4GSR · Mar 19, 2014

First thing I would do is take a side grinder and bust down the weld surface a bit. This will get the hard shell removed enough to get under the rest of it with carbide. This will reduce the wear on your face mill inserts.

My favorite face mill was a Ingersal Maxicut if my memory serves me correct, or something close to that. It used a SEW53 hi-positive type of insert. Iscar sold the same facemill, too! I don't think either one is available today. This has been almost 15 years ago. Mitibuti has some nice face mill too. (pardon my spelling!)

James H Clark · Mar 20, 2014

Webley91: What , if any weld prep are you doing? I would machine the work hardened surface off prior to welding. I would take about .025" or more if necessary to get rid of the hard spots to prevent inclusions. The work hardened areas will float to the top in the welding process. This will remove most of your grief. Good luck.

JH

tdmidget · Mar 20, 2014

4GSR said:
First thing I would do is take a side grinder and bust down the weld surface a bit. This will get the hard shell removed enough to get under the rest of it with carbide. This will reduce the wear on your face mill inserts.

My favorite face mill was a Ingersal Maxicut if my memory serves me correct, or something close to that. It used a SEW53 hi-positive type of insert. Iscar sold the same facemill, too! I don't think either one is available today. This has been almost 15 years ago. Mitibuti has some nice face mill too. (pardon my spelling!)

I'll try

mostagear · Mar 20, 2014

I would use ceramic inserts for such job . whenever i face welded or heat treated material i used my old valenite index-able holder , with valenite inserts .
Grade Q6 literally cuts any material in any condition .

DDoug · Mar 20, 2014

Any tool purchase needs justification.

How many of these are you going to be dooing ?

If you are thinking of using a horizontal mill and straddle milling these,
those cutters are going to be quite large and quite expensive.

hobbyman · Mar 20, 2014

Coming from the welding trade it upsets me to see when welders do not use preheat. Even a 200 degree F preheat on the cyinder end would have helped. The paint is not even discoulored. But what does the welder care.... It is the machinist's problem.

Webley91 · Mar 21, 2014

Thanks for the replies.

Tooling cost is definitely a problem. There may be more of these, but it still may not be cost effective to buy the cutter.

Thanks James H Clarke for the tip about grinding off the work-hardened surface first. I'll remember that.

Spinit · Mar 21, 2014

That cutter that you are thinking about and whether or not it is worth buying is a valid concern. Too you should consider if the investment may be worth it when you consider future work and reduced cutting time. If you can afford to pay for it now the cutter at least is being used and perhaps will be used regularly and therefore a justified expense. Consider what other things you can use it for. You want to select well because they are so expensive. Factor in doing a good job for your old customer or new customer as we have all been in the situation of proving ourselves to them or impressing them with our work. When you think about it enough watch out because if not careful you can spend every dime you have or borrow more than you can repay.

James H Clark · Mar 22, 2014

Webley91: Thanks for the kind words. Keep us posted and let us know what works for you. The tip about preheating is a good one, too.

JH

sable · Mar 22, 2014

Did you ever get that Polish horizontal borer working? Sit the cylinder in the middle of the table ,use a tipped tool in the facing head to machine one side ,spin the quartering table round and do the other face.

Webley91 · Dec 19, 2014

Sorry to bring back an old thread, but there are some more of these cylinders to do. I was far from satisfied with the finish last time, and would like a much better result this time round.

I was thinking of making a disk from fairly thick steel plate (approx 20mm). I would mill a slot out of this to hold a triangular turning insert. This disk will be mounted on the shaft the same way as a conventional horizontal milling cutter.

I am in the situation where I have to get by with what I have access to. As far as my employer is concerned, a purchase of a proper insert cutter is not justifiable. However, I do have access to 20mm thick steel plate and some turning inserts which I could mount onto this not yet made cutter.

locoguy · Dec 19, 2014

These things are cast parts, so it is difficult to tell what the metal composition is. Maybe there is so much carbon in them that machining won't be easy. High preheat may help.

CarbideBob · Dec 19, 2014

Always good to be able to make your own cutter body.
Not sure as to why the pick of a triangle, a square is tougher and easier to pocket but the triangles are free.
Given a choice the insert and rake angles would be negative here and the insert would get a T-land.
This helps the tool hold up to the pounding as it takes off the uneven welded surface.
Since you want a nice finish think about the orient of the trailing edge which forms the cusp. On a triangle this trailing section will be the back side of the radius.
With a triangle you are kind of screwed here so big tool radius which unfortunately adds lots of tool pressure and deflection due to the chip shape on the front of the tool.
(you can't do a zero dish cutter with a triangle unless it has a wiper edge or flat behind the leading radius)

I'd say what the heck, give your idea a try.
Bob

lars66 · Dec 19, 2014

I would go at them with a hand grinder first until they were about down to size, then switch to a 36-40 grit flap disk and work them down closer yet maybe even to finish. But then again I'm a welder and only a machinist hack.

upnorth5axis · Dec 19, 2014

Use whatever face mill you don't like or runs out or has bad seats. This isn't a job to get done fast it's just a job that needs to be done. Even used re-sharp carbide end mills will work. What ever you will rip and tear apart. I used to use a face mill that used the bastard side of a 80 degree diamond lathe insert. It didn't work well at it but it would pound it down without costing a lot of money for inserts

HuFlungDung · Dec 19, 2014

The parts should have been spark tested to determine if it was cast iron or steel. Any idiot that welds cast iron up with ordinary steel mig wire should have to machine off what he put down.

If it's a steel casting, then, it shouldn't have gotten that hard, unless per chance it was an alloy of some sort. Preheat would help a lot in this instance.

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