what is isotropic finishing

castleville · Feb 19, 2010

I was thinking about sending my tranny from my motocross bike to a company that says they isotropic finish them. is that just a fancy term for we put it in a tumbler for a couple hrs or is there more to it than that?

JRIowa · Feb 19, 2010

Isotropic or random pattern is a fancy term for vibratory finishing. There is a lot of science that goes with it however. A very dense media is used. Most of the places that do this type of finishing also have their own concoction of chemicals that are also used.

Will it make you go faster? Probably not. It does reduce the heat due to friction and will remove the stress risers in the geat teeth. It is expensive.
JR

castleville · Feb 19, 2010

when you say chemicals what kind are you talking about i.e.acids or some trade secret chemicals or maybe regular vibratory chemicals that you can buy off the shelf?
thanks
eric

hickstick_10 · Feb 19, 2010

vibrating finishing, its done in a glorified cartridge case tumbler.

makes smooth, shiny gears, with a random pattern of finish. Wont help you win the race. Might extend the life of the gears a bit, but whats the point? I dont see many guys keeping there bike for 10 years of racing anyways.

Forrest Addy · Feb 19, 2010

I smell a gimmick. About 99% of the time fancy processes, materials, and tecniques for motor sports don't pan out in blind testing. About all it gives you is bragging rights, a warm fuzzy feeling, and a flat wallet. Unless you are a hard core earn-your-living-by-racing-in-international-competion guy where 0.5% advantage is a significant factor I'd leave iotropic finishing alone.

No-one depends on reliability, power to weight, or durability like the aerospace industry. Ask yourself, does Pratt and Whitney or Rolls Royce use this isotropic finishing process on their geared accessory drive transmisions in jet eninges and gas turbines? Google "isotropic finishing" and see what you get. My brief look suggests the process has merit although the bulk of the returns are people who offer the service with technical papers and engineering studies a sparse second.

I suggest a week end-racer's money would be better spent on magnetic therapy belts or penile enhancement pills.

watt-steam · Feb 19, 2010

I just wish they'd send me my Q-ray enhanced spark plugs. ($199.95 and they really really work!) (scientifically tested) (comes with a tube of crazy gloo too!)

Clive603 · Feb 19, 2010

If you are going to spend money on transmission gears go to someone like Balzers for a DLC, carbide or whatever they advise coating. It will reduce friction and stress levels on gears.

I paid the £300 and some to have the innards of my Norton Commander gearbox done as these are notoriously over stressed. Typically the third and fourth gear pairs start spalling their hardening at around 50,000 miles. Its not a good idea to put 90 bhp through a 5 speed upgrade of a 4 speed box designed for about 30. Castrol R pushes the life up to around 100,000 miles before bad things start happening but there are limits to what an oil can do. With all new, Balzers coated, innards the gear change works far easier demonstrating that friction is considerably less.

Clive

Ron Hofer · Feb 19, 2010

Re: penile enhancement pills
Forrest, does this mean the guy wouldn't win by a nose?

pistonskirt · Feb 19, 2010

Well.......I was unsure whether I had come across Isotropic finishing so acting upon Forrests advice I did a search, lo & behold if one of the first few results isn't the good old Metal Improvement Company who have quite excellently served my shot peening requirements for probably 25 years

Superfinishing, Super finishing, metal finishing – Metal Improvement Company

I have been inside their factory on several occasions, quite the most impressive was watching as they shaped complete Airbus wings by peen forming, I can assure you that lots of aerospace components pass through their hands including stillages of gears etc stacked five high all along one side of the very large factory. Whether isotropic finishing is broadly employed these days I know not but it seems in essence to be a secondary fine finishing process after shot peening, employed as a stand alone process without first shot peening I would imagine it to have little if any benefit beyond aesthetics.

What did strike me however when I downloaded the Metal Improvements automotive brochure....is that.....one full half side of the whole bloody brochure is in Chinese :rolleyes5:

somewhat disgusted regards

Brian

Halcohead · Feb 19, 2010

Ron Hofer said:
...does this mean the guy wouldn't win by a nose?

Naa, he'll win by a head.

castleville · Feb 20, 2010

well i don't have any illusions of winning. i know i'm a better mechanic than a racer so why not build one hell of a bike. have done the head(porting,bronze seats and guides) cams, piston,dlc coated buckets,springs and ti valves. I already know(friend had it done)that the tranny would run alot quieter and the bike runs cooler and shifts easer.got a buddy with a vibratory and a couple differant types of media. so i might try putting my tranny in instead of paying to get it done. if anyone has an idea what media to start with i am all ears.

Troup · Feb 20, 2010

pistonskirt said:
What did strike me however when I downloaded the Metal Improvements automotive brochure....is that.....one full half side of the whole bloody brochure is in Chinese

somewhat disgusted regards

Hmm ... are you disgusted at the thought that Chinese companies would be interested in a high quality service?

Are we going to go directly from being disgusted by the low quality of what comes out of China, to being disgusted by the high quality, without ever passing through a "Goldilocks zone"?

I think we will look back with nostalgia at the brief period -- now probably coming to an end -- where, in general, Chinese quality was almost as low as their pricing.

It's hard enough to compete with China's industrial output in an era when the perception of their quality is still so negative. As that perception evolves to reflect changing reality, I can't see it getting easier, or even staying the same.

Limy Sami · Feb 20, 2010

castleville said:
well i don't have any illusions of winning. i know i'm a better mechanic than a racer so why not build one hell of a bike. have done the head(porting,bronze seats and guides) cams, piston,dlc coated buckets,springs and ti valves. I already know(friend had it done)that the tranny would run alot quieter and the bike runs cooler and shifts easer.got a buddy with a vibratory and a couple differant types of media. so i might try putting my tranny in instead of paying to get it done. if anyone has an idea what media to start with i am all ears.

I'd start off with a couple of oilstones and remove all the burrs and nicks, anything that doesn't look right, nice little sit down CHEAP job,............. you may well be surprised the difference it can make.

I can't really see the point in super duper big $$ finishing a set of worn gears,......... so you'll need a full set of inspected fully blue printed gears & shafts to start with with,................... + the fancy doo dads................ for what? - a 3rd or 4th decimal place improvement in efficientcy,................. oh and don't forget you'll need the blue printed cases to put them in.

pistonskirt · Feb 20, 2010

Troup said:
Hmm ... are you disgusted at the thought that Chinese companies would be interested in a high quality service?

Are we going to go directly from being disgusted by the low quality of what comes out of China, to being disgusted by the high quality, without ever passing through a "Goldilocks zone"?

I think we will look back with nostalgia at the brief period -- now probably coming to an end -- where, in general, Chinese quality was almost as low as their pricing.

It's hard enough to compete with China's industrial output in an era when the perception of their quality is still so negative. As that perception evolves to reflect changing reality, I can't see it getting easier, or even staying the same.

You are of course quite correct in what you say.....and I am old enough to have experienced Japanese products similarly evolve :rolleyes5:

Forgive my slipping into "grumpy old man" mode.....perhaps I need to get out more

regards

Brian

castleville · Feb 21, 2010

Thanks for the info guys. the research i have done says i wont get much in hp gains but temp drop is the bigest benefit and heat is a big killer in a engine pulling 13,000rpms.

eric

dougspair · Dec 7, 2018

Motorcycles.....Back in 1981, I had ALL of the internal (motor and transmission) steel parts of my 1946 Knucklehead, and 1972 Sportster treated by the following...Magna-flux, shot-peening, hard chrome and a Moly-coating, the aluminum 'cases' were checked for cracks with 'Zy-Glow', and glass beaded.....both bikes are still running fine, despite a lot of miles and some hard riding...

This work was done at Ex-Cello Plating in Los Angeles...

DethloffMfg · Dec 7, 2018

For gears, from what I've seen the best things to do to them if you feel like you haven't spent enough on them or if you really push them hard, would be REM finishing (micropolishing) and Cryo treatment (affects material grain).

eKretz · Dec 7, 2018

Troup said:
Hmm ... are you disgusted at the thought that Chinese companies would be interested in a high quality service?

Are we going to go directly from being disgusted by the low quality of what comes out of China, to being disgusted by the high quality, without ever passing through a "Goldilocks zone"?

I think we will look back with nostalgia at the brief period -- now probably coming to an end -- where, in general, Chinese quality was almost as low as their pricing.

It's hard enough to compete with China's industrial output in an era when the perception of their quality is still so negative. As that perception evolves to reflect changing reality, I can't see it getting easier, or even staying the same.

Hmm... Eight years later, not much has changed. Still waiting.

EmGo · Dec 7, 2018

eKretz said:
Hmm... Eight years later, not much has changed. Still waiting.

Went to Horror Freight a while back. I needed a wrench in a hurry. I had full-on Snap-On tools elsewhere but this was an emergency.

Got a set of combination wrenches for $16. They are okay. Good finish, fit the nuts well, tightened and loosened all the bolts I needed to loosen and tighten. I wouldn't expect to put a 3' long piece of pipe on the 1/2" wrench and wail away on a frozen bolt, like I would with the Snap-On, but for normal use they are just as good. They even look good.

And they cost $16 a set, not $16 a wrench.

You may have been sleeping the past few years ...

CarbideBob · Dec 7, 2018

Snake oil.
Along with shot peening, chroming, Moly-coat, REM and Cryo.
Also add in inspection by Magna and Zy which is most often done by people not trained in using it.
But people will spend hard earned dollars on it and swear by it to others so they are all good if you are the person doing the work.
If I was in this business I would offer all this and the more to customers.
I would not however bother or waste the time doing it to my own toys.
At 14-16 years old I was all over this "trick" stuff I read about. At 60+ I have a different view.
Bob

what is isotropic finishing

Plastic

Diamond

Plastic

Stainless

Diamond

Plastic

Titanium

Hot Rolled

Hot Rolled

Stainless

Plastic

Titanium

Diamond

Hot Rolled

Plastic

Plastic

Cast Iron

Diamond; Mod Squad

Diamond

Diamond

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