What material for a wheel nut socket

moonlight machine · Jun 23, 2018

I need to make some wheel nut sockets for an old Indycar. Don't even suggest buying one, you will never find one like this. The area that grips the nut has 12 lobes and is almost 5" diameter, it is 6" long and uses a 1" sq. drive. The original one had a titanium bit that grips the nut bolted to an aluminum tube that had the sq. drive (made from EN 16, wtf is that?) bolted on with 12 3/8 socket head cap screws. It was a real cluster fuck and maintinence nightmare. I am going to make them from some sort of steel, maby 8620? The tube area will be only .060 to .090 thick. The area where the sq. drive plugs in as well as the lobes should be heat treated. What about heat treating a part with thick and thin sections. Any ideas on material or should I stick with 8620?

Miguels244 · Jun 23, 2018

moonlight machine said:
I need to make some wheel nut sockets for an old Indycar. Don't even suggest buying one, you will never find one like this. The area that grips the nut has 12 lobes and is almost 5" diameter, it is 6" long and uses a 1" sq. drive. The original one had a titanium bit that grips the nut bolted to an aluminum tube that had the sq. drive (made from EN 16, wtf is that?) bolted on with 12 3/8 socket head cap screws. It was a real cluster fuck and maintinence nightmare. I am going to make them from some sort of steel, maby 8620? The tube area will be only .060 to .090 thick. The area where the sq. drive plugs in as well as the lobes should be heat treated. What about heat treating a part with thick and thin sections. Any ideas on material or should I stick with 8620?

I think MCMaster has those...
Seriously though, I can’t imagine the duty cycle and loads ar beyond been prehard.
If it were me I’d use any strong steel that will take not riding and have it nitrided.

crossthread · Jun 23, 2018

I have been very successful with 4140 when I am not sure what to use but want something tough.

Larry Dickman · Jun 23, 2018

we made some sockets out of 4140 pre hard. They didn't hold up at all. These nuts had to be torqued to 1200 lb-ft, but we never came close to that before they twisted apart. Maybe some 300m heat treated to beyond belief?

moonlight machine · Jun 23, 2018

Larry Dickman said:
we made some sockets out of 4140 pre hard. They didn't hold up at all. These nuts had to be torqued to 1200 lb-ft, but we never came close to that before they twisted apart. Maybe some 300m heat treated to beyond belief?

These nuts are just rattled on with a 1" air impact. When we first raced these cars we set the air pressure to the wheel gun to get a 1000 ft lb torque as tested with a torque wrench.

JRIowa · Jun 23, 2018

moonlight machine said:
made from EN 16, wtf is that?

EN16 is about a 4130
EN19 is very close to 4140

IMO, I would not use 8620. The surface gets very hard and is prone to cracking if subjected to impact.

I'm thinking good old L-6 or Maxell 3 1/2 (4150M)
JR

DDoug · Jun 23, 2018

Impact wrenches develop "Impact"....I would go with s-7.

Miguels244 · Jun 23, 2018

Why are these a maintenance nightmare?
What wears out?
What needs to be maintained on a socket?

DDoug · Jun 23, 2018

As we cannot edit postings at this time I will add this:
A toolmaaker friend had a problem where s-7 was not holding up,
and found the solution to be a-8.

Harder to find, but worth it in his case.

One problem I find, is finding good data for tool steels
at various hardness levels.

Tensile, compression, elongation, and charpy numbers are what I usually need.

EmGo · Jun 23, 2018

Built somewhat similar parts in the past, most people just want to go with 300M. But ... if'n I wuz doing it one time and didn't want to mess with it again, I'd go Vascomax. 250 or 300 maybe. It's some godawful tough stuff.

moonlight machine · Jun 23, 2018

Miguels244 said:
Why are these a maintenance nightmare?
What wears out?
What needs to be maintained on a socket?

The original socket was 3 main pieces, the nut drive lobe ring, it bolted to the aluminum tube with 12, 1/4" bolts on a 4.5 or so bolt circle. The aluminum tube. And the drive disc with the 1" sq. drive broached through, it was bolted to the tube with 12, 3/8" socket head cap screws. All the bolts had ring dowels. It made no difference, they were always falling apart. Why did we not fix it in 1990? Because the car was designed by the same moron and it was all we could do to keep it together. Why am I fixing it now? Because some bright spark with way too much money has decided to go vintage racing with one of these things and is paying me a boatload of money to help him do it.

moonlight machine · Jun 23, 2018

Miguels244 said:
Why are these a maintenance nightmare?
What wears out?
What needs to be maintained on a socket?

The original socket was 3 main pieces, the nut drive lobe ring, it bolted to the aluminum tube with 12, 1/4" bolts on a 4.5 or so bolt circle. The aluminum tube. And the drive disc with the 1" sq. drive broached through, it was bolted to the tube with 12, 3/8" socket head cap screws. All the bolts had ring dowels. It made no difference, they were always falling apart. 1" drive air impact guns running on 250 psi nitrogen can tear some shit up. Why did we not fix it in 1990? Because the car was designed by the same moron that designed the sockets and it was all we could do to keep it together. Why am I fixing it now? Because some bright spark with way too much money has decided to go vintage racing with one of these things and is paying me a boatload of money to help him do it.

moonlight machine · Jun 23, 2018

I edited post 11 and ended up with post 12, wtf?

Mud · Jun 23, 2018

Does it warrant 9310, and do you have someone that can HT 9310? If you made it bigger to be stronger, would it be too heavy to handle or work properly?

Miguels244 · Jun 23, 2018

moonlight machine said:
The original socket was 3 main pieces, the nut drive lobe ring, it bolted to the aluminum tube with 12, 1/4" bolts on a 4.5 or so bolt circle. The aluminum tube. And the drive disc with the 1" sq. drive broached through, it was bolted to the tube with 12, 3/8" socket head cap screws. All the bolts had ring dowels. It made no difference, they were always falling apart. 1" drive air impact guns running on 250 psi nitrogen can tear some shit up. Why did we not fix it in 1990? Because the car was designed by the same moron that designed the sockets and it was all we could do to keep it together. Why am I fixing it now? Because some bright spark with way too much money has decided to go vintage racing with one of these things and is paying me a boatload of money to help him do it.

Right...thanks.
More money than sense.

Any good high charpy steel nitrited will work.
Make it from cheese and sell the guy a dozen a season.

EmGo · Jun 23, 2018

Thinking a little (coulda done that first, I s'pose) it sounds like the failures are from the fasteners ?

So overall strength is not as much an issue as getting rid of the joints ?

Maybe consider 17-4 ? Reasonably strong, machines well, heat treats well without much distortion, readily available at not too high a cost, would look good in the pits (always a consideration for those gentleman racer guys) ...

DDoug · Jun 24, 2018

I designed a special wrench to be used with a 1" impact wrench (a pin spanner)

The removable pins are "aeromet 100"......boss had some laying around.

Never got the tool back for repairs, the old tool was always "in the shop".

NRDock · Jun 24, 2018

Are you changing the overall shape of the design, or just trying to make one piece in steel? Was the purpose of the aluminum tube to make the socket deep enough for the axle, or to reach into the wheel?

It sounds like minimizing the moment of inertia was a consideration of the original design. After all, the purpose was to remove and install the wheel nuts as fast as possible. I wonder how much torquing time is increased, if the original shape is duplicated in steel?

moonlight machine · Jun 24, 2018

NRDock said:
Are you changing the overall shape of the design, or just trying to make one piece in steel? Was the purpose of the aluminum tube to make the socket deep enough for the axle, or to reach into the wheel?

It sounds like minimizing the moment of inertia was a consideration of the original design. After all, the purpose was to remove and install the wheel nuts as fast as possible. I wonder how much torquing time is increased, if the original shape is duplicated in steel?

The car uses flat face wheels, the nuts are 7" in from the outer surface. Yes, it was done for moment of inertia, didn't matter though the thread diameter caused way to much drag. 1 piece steel is what I am going to do, as light as possible. No pit stops so speed is of no concern.

jonok · Jun 24, 2018

So is this something that predates Paoli's involvement in Indy car racing, or are you a competitor?

What material for a wheel nut socket

Diamond

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Titanium

Titanium

Diamond

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Diamond

Diamond

Diamond

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Diamond

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Cast Iron

Diamond

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