What separates 'premium' carbide from 'commodity' carbide?

Cole2534 · Sep 15, 2020

As I dig deeper into tool choices, I'm left with the feeling that it's the base material that really makes the difference. There's only so many ways, albeit quite a few, that one can grind a 4fl 1/2" end mill right?

So what separates the commodity grades from the ultra premium?

LockNut · Sep 15, 2020

I'll go out on a limb. Price? On a more serious note. Formulation? Binder material? Sintering technology? The question is, are the big guys better? Depends on how serious you are with tool performance.

Cole2534 · Sep 15, 2020

LockNut said:
I'll go out on a limb. Price? On a more serious note. Formulation? Binder material? Sintering technology? The question is, are the big guys better? Depends on how serious you are with tool performance.

I figured that was a given. I imagine the premium tools do work better to justify the cost, I'm just curious as how to they arrive there.

DDoug · Sep 15, 2020

Bronze paint...…

toolsteel · Sep 15, 2020

not sure how terminology affects what we are talking about here.
I have been told with endmills premium is virgin material....not recycled therefore a higher level of control as to what is in it. VS commodity which is recycled and may have more "other" in it.

I am willing to be wrong.......its what i was told from a coworker. Not something i know as factual.

DavidScott · Sep 15, 2020

I prefer to try tools out and judge them by the performance and method of failure I see. For my needs in steel I am using Lakeshore right now. Very good prices on what I use and no complaints about how well they work or last. The grind is just as important as the carbide, and the coating is pretty damned important too.

Just because the price is high doesn't mean they use great carbide. It might mean they have high overhead and cheap carbide, or overzealous marketing BS. I have learned that if I ask whos carbide is used and it's a secret then that means it's cheap shit and move on, even if they are a "premium" brand.

mneuro · Sep 15, 2020

My understanding is that it is related to the consistency of the grain size. More consistent grain size within a grain leads to better strength and repeatability of performance.

TeachMePlease · Sep 15, 2020

My experience so far leads me to believe that it's down to the grain size of the carbide mix ins, and the percentages of mix ins.

For example, I have some tools that are made with a 12% cobalt mixture vs what I guess may be a "standard" 10% cobalt mixture.

Tool life with the 12% stock is 33K pieces. Lead times on 12% stock from a reputable European manufacturer climbed, so we agreed to try the "standard" material... Still testing, but it doesn't look like tool life is going to be anywhere NEAR the same.

Gordon Heaton · Sep 15, 2020

I agree that price (within reason) isn't necessarily indicative of quality or lack of same. I will say that none of the really good stuff comes cheap when bought from a reputable dealer, but good bargains can be found. There definitely is a huge difference in durability and performance among carbides. For instance, the Walter parting inserts seem near indestructible at times.

Mike1974 · Sep 15, 2020

I don't know, but similar to what Gordon said, we used sumitomo insert drills and inserts and they lasted forever in 4140ph. Can't give you a number, just remember one lone box of inserts collecting dust they were changed so infrequently. Grade, coating, who knows?

Cole2534 · Sep 15, 2020

mneuro said:
My understanding is that it is related to the consistency of the grain size. More consistent grain size within a grain leads to better strength and repeatability of performance.

That's the kind of answer I was looking for. Thanks.

MattiJ · Sep 15, 2020

TeachMePlease said:
My experience so far leads me to believe that it's down to the grain size of the carbide mix ins, and the percentages of mix ins.

For example, I have some tools that are made with a 12% cobalt mixture vs what I guess may be a "standard" 10% cobalt mixture.

Tool life with the 12% stock is 33K pieces. Lead times on 12% stock from a reputable European manufacturer climbed, so we agreed to try the "standard" material... Still testing, but it doesn't look like tool life is going to be anywhere NEAR the same.

Probably also some other difference than 10% or 12% cobalt. Grain size, uniformity, other tungsten carbides, incomplete sintering, carbon deposits mixed in the material or something else.

CarbideBob · Sep 15, 2020

"What separates 'premium' carbide from 'commodity' carbide? "

Marketing?
There are a limited number of sources for rod and a more limited number for mixed powder.
True virgin (which is rare) vs % recycled has never proven to be a performance indicator. In fact a certain amount of reclaim tends a tad better IME in many grades.
Lower cost import rod or other tends to have some quality control problems in porosity, contamination and mix control. May work well in one batch and not so good in another.

Very, very few (if any) endmill makers produce their own carbide.
Buying rod in a different than normal run grade means paying a higher price for the stock.
Notice the number of grades in inserts vs the selection available in endmills. Most endmills are just a different coating on the same carbide under it all.
Even with the same machines and built in programs the grind counts. One may be using one type wheel and another something different.
If it works it works, if not or want more try another.
Many get a favorite, if you are standing still you are in fact falling behind.
Bob

ChipSplitter · Sep 15, 2020

With solid carbide endmills, hardness and rigidity are key. (Unlike interrupted turning where shock resistance is paramount.)

As others have said, smaller grain size equals less binder and more carbide. Think of a jar full of golf balls vs. a jar full of peas. As the carbide grains get smaller, the rigidity and hardness increase dramatically for the simple reason that carbide can handle more heat and is more rigid than cobalt binder. Hence the "micrograin carbide" marketing mantra. BUT, micrograin only means that the grains are sub-micron. Premium carbide rod may have grains of 0.35 micron vs. cheap Chinese "micrograin" carbide that has 0.95 micron grain size.

That's why I like Iscar solid carbide because their endmills deflect less than most other brands, not to mention tool life is better. (FWIW, IC903 means 0.3 micron grain size, IC908 is 0.8 micron.)

No affiliation with Iscar, just a happy customer.

CarbideBob · Sep 15, 2020

ChipSplitter said:
With solid carbide endmills, hardness and rigidity are key. (Unlike interrupted turning where shock resistance is paramount.)

As others have said, smaller grain size equals less binder and more carbide. ...
.

Actually smaller grain size needs more cobalt content.
One never sees micro-grain at 6 or such percent cobalt. It falls apart. this the world of fine or mid size grain,
8 very hard to do, 10 and 12 the norm.
Admit that others here may have more info than me and bow to all posts now or in the future, I am still trying to understand. It is all so confusing.
Bob

ChipSplitter · Sep 15, 2020

CarbideBob said:
Actually smaller grain size needs more cobalt content.
One never sees micro-grain at 6 or such percent cobalt. It falls apart. this the world of fine or mid size grain,
8 very hard to do, 10 and 12 the norm.
Admit that others here may have more info than me and bow to all posts now or in the future, I am still trying to understand. It is all so confusing.
Bob

Bob, not trying to pick an argument since I realize that you know way more than I ever will.

This page is helpful also: Understanding Carbide Substrates used in End Mills - Destiny Tool

Quoted from the page:

An increase in cobalt content results in increased toughness (TRS) while hardness and wear resistance are reduced.

compared to the very next sentences:

This opposite development of the two desirable parameters, hardness and toughness, can be countered by reducing the carbide grain size. The result is an increased hardness because of the finer grain of the carbide which at the same time permits a high binding metal content as the grain structure offers a large surface area on which to bind: It also creates a high toughness. Consequently, superfine grain carbide grades offer increased hardness while maintaining toughness.

Confusing.......you're right, Bob.

I think I'll keep it simple and take a course in quantum mechanics.

CarbideBob · Sep 15, 2020

ChipSplitter said:
...
This page is helpful also: Understanding Carbide Substrates used in End Mills - Destiny Tool

Dear Mr chip, this one a really great link. :bowdown:

Bob

DavidScott · Sep 15, 2020

Bad carbide is what pushed me to find Destiny Tool many years ago. They do use very good carbides, I have never had an issue with them. They use several different types, depending on the tool and size being made from it.

DDoug · Sep 15, 2020

ChipSplitter said:
I think I'll keep it simple and take a course in quantum mechanics.

Naw...try "Whisker reinforced ceramics" next.....

Bill D · Sep 15, 2020

I have to assume that quality carbide is polished with fine grained diamond very carefully by workers who know what they are doing. The cheap stuff is probably as cast or a quick deburing on a rough wheel, just for appearance sake.
Bil lD

What separates 'premium' carbide from 'commodity' carbide?

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