What would be the best kind of machine for this sort of work? - Page 7
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  1. #121
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    I s'pose if'n I wuz a cheapskate (check) and not too many parts to do, I'd take a biggish plate for a base and weld a biggish upright on one side and a smaller one farther away than the width of your cases. Square the big one up real good and drill it for the bolt pattern of your cases where the clutch attaches. They have dowels for alignment ? If not, you're making the cases, you can put in a pair.

    Then through both uprights and square to the boltoit surface, a bearing in each plate.

    Through the bearings goes a bar with four Devlieg Microbore inserts, one for each web. Nice snug fit but still moves.

    Now you put the cases together around the bar, then bolt the whole mess to the locating upright. Drive the bar through the webs with anything - it's only going to move about an inch so old horizontal mill, $500,000 Makino, lathe, Ex-Cell-O boring machine, anything will work that has 2" of feed.

    That'd be a pain in the rear for very many parts but if you don't want to spend much money .... you could even paint it glitzy with some grey metallic enamel and put it on a base, make it look good for brochures, "our custom-built bearing boring machine ..."

    You could do the balance weight bearings at the same time.

  2. #122
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    I've just been kind of lurking on this to see what ideas folks would throw out. Years ago we made some cam drive gears for Donovan for one of their projects, so while in LA, we went for a visit. The most astonishing thing to me was how they were machining their blocks including main bores and cam tunnels. Several machines were dedicated to main and cam bearing bore machining. You would assume latest state of the art CNC horiz boring mills. Nope- old early generation NC Heald/Cintimatic horizontal machining centers. Obviously, the machines were in excellent condition for their age. I suspect they choose these machines because they were plentiful and inexpensive leftovers from the SoCal Aircraft plants. The spindles all had Universal Kwik Switch 400 spindle noses and their boring bars were all custom made, and as EG said, were setup with Devlig Microbore cartridges.

    I understand Donovan may have upgraded their machines since then, but it might just be worth a call to them. They are certainly a low volume manufacturer with similar issues.

    Ross' input is not to be taken lightly- line boring inside a case and tool setting is not as easy as with a conventional engine but it is done everyday. You may well have to drop a center boring bar support down thru a cylinder opening- just part of the process.

    In your case where you will have the bore accurately located and the bore geometry should be excellent, I don't see why line honing to final size would not be a consideration- unless the bores are stepped, and it does not appear that's the situation here. Hope this helps.

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by PCar73 View Post
    Check out this pic I found in my digging. What is driving this, a lathe???


    Edit: Nope, it's a Matra Line Bore machine.....

    Wonder if you could cut the thrust with this at least from the inside.
    That's a proper machine for you, similar (new) linked below. I've done blocks on my DeVlieg but they work better when using my portable bar parts and back driving the spindle with the flexible coupling made for my CRE kit.

    While it’s traditional to set up a motor with the bearing caps off with these bars you don’t have to. You can assemble the cases & then go to the boring machine, the bar goes in from the back end to the drive end.

    A good diesel shop in your area is gonna know where one of these are (proper line borer) → Winona Van Norman [Products - Align Boring - LB Models - LB2 Block Line Boring Machine]

    You may find after inquiring that you’d need tons machined before you paid for the line borer, I dunno.

    The setup in post #10 is a portable 3 bearing rig being used on a milling machine. It has the outboard bearings stuck to the universal mount plates and the center steady in the middle. It looks to be using a 36-40” boring bar. I’d have to have a good look at the center steady to see if it would work through the cylinder holes in the side of your case.

    If that company has that setup it should also have the jewelry to make it portable (feed box & flexible coupling for a drill drive).

    When working vertical like the radial you don’t have sag in the bar to be accounted for → You still need a steady in the center of the 20” spacing and would likely want a longer bar, 48”+.

    Good luck,
    Matt

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spruewell View Post
    I still think a vertical turret lathe would do a lot of the operations you need, and more. Good used ones can be found cheap and would not require a huge amount of floor space. You will get WAY more bang for the buck over a radial drill just in rigidity and flexibility of tooling. If you were just cleaning up an existing bore, you might be able to get away with a radial drill because the alignment is already set, but you are cutting new journals. You need the ability to set the alignment. A retro-fitted lathe may do the trick, but what’s it going to cost in time and materials to get that monstrosity dialed in, not to mention the floor space requirement for that setup. A horizontal boring mill will also suffer similar floor space restrictions. And both will be subject to gravity pulling your tool out of alignment. A VTL will not be affected by this, as the tool will be hanging down. And fixturing should be pretty quick and simple. A two position fixture plate (1 position for the main and the 2nd position for the lay shaft) would not be hard to produce.

    Could even make 2 fixture plates to use as a pallet system
    I also keep coming back to a vertical solution....

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlfaGTA View Post
    Think the wild card here for both the lathe and radial is the counter shaft bore....To me this screams out for a rigid live spindle, but work around is surely possible.
    To use the radial a fixture with at least two bearings (bushings) with enough space between to provide stability would need to be mounted in front of the case...think fixture length, bar length and weight
    Then you would need a bar to do the cutting ...long reach on small diameter....Oh and how about gauging....lots of stuff there in the way of making an accurate measurement while fixtured up.
    Long reach bore gauges are available, but in my experience their accuracy suffers when they get long.

    Suppose that some form of removable bearing carriers could be used to allow removal of the fixture components that get in the way...but that's another area for things to get out of position.

    Cheers Ross
    Working on top of AlphaGTA, traditional machine tools “put things there”. Clamping of the block in a machine should mimic how it lives (at rest) in use. That’s hard to do & then trust it’s going to stay there while roughing things out.

    With the dedicated portable bars the block is the structure & a machine just pushes & turns the bar. The bearings are all connected “to the block”. The bar goes “with the block”. The block is the actual machine tool bed…

    Speaking of stub bars, Kent Moore makes some cool stuff. Mine is too small for main & cam bores but I’ve had it stuck in some weird places. Hydraulic push drive using drill motor with about 6” of travel.

    Good luck,
    Matt
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails kentmoorebore.jpg   kentmoore_inst.jpg  

  6. #126
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    Be nice if you could use something like this on the two halves before removing from the Haas. If it worked well enough you could assemble the crankcase and line hone a thousandth or two to finish.

    Last edited by David_M; 01-11-2019 at 09:11 AM.

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  8. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by David_M View Post
    Be nice if you could use something like this on the two halves before removing from the Haas. If it worked well enough you could assemble the crankcase and line hone a thousandth or two to finnish.

    That's a Rottler machine, really nice piece of kit. Wish it work for me, I actually know a guy who has one, possibly we could try it.

  9. #128
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    Not a fan of the smaller Rottler setup for line boring.....Issue is that in the end its still a knee and column machine...
    Issue is weight shift and the resulting sag of the table as it moves from side to side.....

    Rottlers larger machine is different, being a bed type that eliminates the shift/droop.....

    Cheers Ross

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    I just spotted this thread...Fascinating discussion. I did a bit of Google on MAPAL & it seems they have a USA division that may be worth contacting. Here are a couple links that will let you find them & a specific boring bar that may be suitable for this task:

    Mapal Boring Bars | Cutting Tool Engineering <article on boring bar>

    MAPAL
    Showroom :

    Modern Machine Shop
    <article on MAPAL USA with contact info>

    OP, please keep posting info on your process of sorting thru options, option you finally select & what results you achieve.

    Lee

  11. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by PCar73 View Post
    Thank you!

    What I have found is that engine BLOCK line boring is done all the time with a variety of machines. Most of these machines are meant only for traditional blocks where one can fit a boring bar in the mains, bolt on the caps, then have at it. Berco, Sunnen, and Rottler make machines that do this, but exactly NONE of them work on an engine CASE where the mains are concealed by the case itself, and there is no way to use the support bars that hold the boring bar straight.

    This is why I want to pick the collective brain trust's head to see if there is an older, more primitive solution to this. As I said before, a Jig Bore machine with enough travel would be perfect to bore a long, straight hole.

    I will make sure that the UMC 1000 removes as much material as possible so that the line bore doesn't have to work very hard at all.

    It's quite a conundrum for me....
    Look to the aviation engine industry...........Reciprocating aircraft engines use a split crankcase much like the Porsche and are align bored all the time

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    Look to the aviation engine industry.............Aircraft Reciprocating engines have a split crankcase like the Porsche and are align bored all the time.

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    Thrust loads on high speed aluminum boring?

  14. #133
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    Thinking out of the box, cutting the bearing bores would seem a natural for wire EDM. Dead straight, all the same dia. no tooling but wire and the machine. Easy fixturing since no cutting forces. Should be able to handle the tolerances. Excellent finish on the bores. Too slow?

    RWO

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    A question of what exactly you are making,there were many changes over the years that were mentioned. For example, besides being aluminum (introduced in the 930) the casting that you showed in the beginning has no sump plate which was deleted on later engines (964 case). The stud locations were moved out for the larger 3.0L bore.
    Are you going to dowel pin the mains?
    Thanks.


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