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what would you do?

DMusk23

Plastic
Joined
Aug 25, 2021
first I would like to thank you for taking the time to read this. i don't like to get long winded but I'm at my wits end. recently i got a job in a job shop as a machinist. I interviewed for a engineering position but the company at that time needed more machinist, though the interview went really well for the eingeering spot I agreed to a spot as a machinist and was told what i would be doing as far as setting up and running mills. me personally I am a lathe guy I have a ton of experience with y axis live tool sub spindle lathes programming and setting up (witch the job I applied for was a process engineer for the lathe department) I also explained to them there might be a learning curve as I used a probe on the mills I've ran set up and programmed this place used edge finders and very outdated (no offense) practices at least in my eyes. I even walked around with the GM around the 5 axis machines and broke down how I would set up program and run a aerospace part and he was excited for me to start. so I've been here for a couple months now first week was very basic I set up and ran a 5 axis mill and a 3 axis mill my supervisor was very impressed and even told me how good I was doing and everything else however the last few weeks I've been in a de-bur room deburring parts that from my knowledge are already way past due and on a good day take about 3 hours a part to deburr. I've offered input to my supervisor to reduce the deburr time since a lot of it was pretty basic like running a chamfer mill outside of the pockets to break very sharp edges but instead of positive feed back I got " that's not your job to worry about what we do we've done it this way for years" so I asked why I was back there doing deburr work when I was hired to run a machine and was told it was because I was the new guy witch I understood so I did the work. once the order was done I went back to a machine. I cam in early one morning and was told to run a weird part and told my supervisor that I wasn't too comfortable with it and was told to ask a co worker how to do it and follow the set up notes. so I did exactly that and had a part move in the fixture so I stopped and found something else to do till the other operator who usually ran those parts came in so I could ask. I started up the machine I usually ran and did my normal thing checked the coolant warmed up the spindle and my supervisor comes over red faced mad and tells me (not ask)why did you scrap those parts there's 4 of them there when i tell you to do something you f&^%ing do it!" so I told him that I ran one and it moved I do not know were 4 came from so the normal operator said "oh must of been night shift I didn't know anyone was running it or id left a note its not your fault that's just how he is " (the supervisor). so then he comes and grabs me and ask me to set up a very old machine I told him I didn't know the control panel (97 Fadel) and asked for help. he told me what to do to the T then when I came back from break I noticed he was messing with it and threw a part on my table and said " you forgot to move your edge finder I thought I told you to pay attention!!". I didn't say anything I walked back to my machine did my task then the next morning I had parts to deburr and bend back into tolerance. yes I said that correctly bend parts back into tolerance witch no one had any clue how to do so I messed with it and messed with it and didn't get a lot done and I walk to my supervisor and told him this and his response was " its ok we will get them tomorrow I know they aren't easy" to only come in the very next day to be told I'm not trying hard enough and to pull my head out of somewhere. now I do NOT want you to think this is a bash post cause it isn't and yes I have looked for work else where but it seems like a lot of these job shops in my area have the same problems as this. I do not mind the work but as the title says in this situation what would you do with that going on?
 
first I would like to thank you for taking the time to read this. i don't like to get long winded but I'm at my wits end. recently i got a job in a job shop as a machinist. I interviewed for a engineering position but the company at that time needed more machinist, though the interview went really well for the eingeering spot I agreed to a spot as a machinist and was told what i would be doing as far as setting up and running mills. me personally I am a lathe guy I have a ton of experience with y axis live tool sub spindle lathes programming and setting up (witch the job I applied for was a process engineer for the lathe department) I also explained to them there might be a learning curve as I used a probe on the mills I've ran set up and programmed this place used edge finders and very outdated (no offense) practices at least in my eyes. I even walked around with the GM around the 5 axis machines and broke down how I would set up program and run a aerospace part and he was excited for me to start. so I've been here for a couple months now first week was very basic I set up and ran a 5 axis mill and a 3 axis mill my supervisor was very impressed and even told me how good I was doing and everything else however the last few weeks I've been in a de-bur room deburring parts that from my knowledge are already way past due and on a good day take about 3 hours a part to deburr. I've offered input to my supervisor to reduce the deburr time since a lot of it was pretty basic like running a chamfer mill outside of the pockets to break very sharp edges but instead of positive feed back I got " that's not your job to worry about what we do we've done it this way for years" so I asked why I was back there doing deburr work when I was hired to run a machine and was told it was because I was the new guy witch I understood so I did the work. once the order was done I went back to a machine. I cam in early one morning and was told to run a weird part and told my supervisor that I wasn't too comfortable with it and was told to ask a co worker how to do it and follow the set up notes. so I did exactly that and had a part move in the fixture so I stopped and found something else to do till the other operator who usually ran those parts came in so I could ask. I started up the machine I usually ran and did my normal thing checked the coolant warmed up the spindle and my supervisor comes over red faced mad and tells me (not ask)why did you scrap those parts there's 4 of them there when i tell you to do something you f&^%ing do it!" so I told him that I ran one and it moved I do not know were 4 came from so the normal operator said "oh must of been night shift I didn't know anyone was running it or id left a note its not your fault that's just how he is " (the supervisor). so then he comes and grabs me and ask me to set up a very old machine I told him I didn't know the control panel (97 Fadel) and asked for help. he told me what to do to the T then when I came back from break I noticed he was messing with it and threw a part on my table and said " you forgot to move your edge finder I thought I told you to pay attention!!". I didn't say anything I walked back to my machine did my task then the next morning I had parts to deburr and bend back into tolerance. yes I said that correctly bend parts back into tolerance witch no one had any clue how to do so I messed with it and messed with it and didn't get a lot done and I walk to my supervisor and told him this and his response was " its ok we will get them tomorrow I know they aren't easy" to only come in the very next day to be told I'm not trying hard enough and to pull my head out of somewhere. now I do NOT want you to think this is a bash post cause it isn't and yes I have looked for work else where but it seems like a lot of these job shops in my area have the same problems as this. I do not mind the work but as the title says in this situation what would you do with that going on?

I might have a go at reformatting this ^^^ , later in the thread / get to the "Meat".



Weirdly I was in a similar situation at two different work places in my 20's.

Sort of bait and switch of job/project roles.

I think you are probably going to have to "suck it up" for at least 6 months, and in essence beat them at their own game - in a couple of areas - at least to prove you are "worthy".

In other words they know you are the 'hot shot" ,

But in essence they want you to experience everything they have gone through and learn process-wise everything they are doing.

Basically comply and do everything exactly the way they have been asking you to do things, but get really good at whatever they are doing (if possible) - no matter how archaic it may seem, but as you know some of this older stuff requires skill. [key point later.].

~ But here's the thing, here's the 'Ace " in the hole.

Having learnt some of their processes inside and out , you then through the six months take meticulous notes of how things are being done now,

How things can be improved , process wise , + whatever minor training programs need to be devised (for example "probing" ).

+ make the real arguments as to what that does to their bottom line.


If we were gonna get all "Titan Gilroy" from the "Pulpit" ;-)

Then you would hold a meeting with said "stressed boss" and say "I can make you and your company THIS much $$$$$$$$$$$ from this... "

But the key thing is , IS that you have to show a reasonable or deep understanding of their existing processes and most importantly ,

GAIN THE TRUST of the people you are working with. <---- That six months will give you time to learn what everyone else there is really having trouble with AND also gives you time to listen to what they want or would like (in some measure). In a lot of cases you find people to be somewhat guarded initially as they "feel" in some cases rather insecure about what they are doing. These people you work with would probably rather work for a company that is on the up and up rather than have lessened prospects and job security with a company that is on a vector to a "Slow burn" fail.

[ ^^^ But takes subtle ways of approaching all that almost by osmosis and more subtle influence rather than shooting your mouth off as to how things can be done "Better". "Raise a company up" and maybe also raise the livelihood and prospects of the people you work with , no matter how cynical and bitter they may seem. - but don't underestimate your co-workers for having figured this all out a LONG time ago. ~ but you will need allies and need to make friends to actually pull that off. ].

[A written proposal / formal presentation might be needed, + written metrics and outline + process and profit margin + scope of growth potential and maybe even (future projected) different approach to hiring / skills and training issues for new staff etc. Seems that your Boss has slightly painted himself/ herself into a corner on that with diminishing returns. i.e. a younger workforce with different skill set coupled with more modern methods will eventually be needed no matter what. ]. <---- But obviously to prepare all of that initial documentation and "Analysis' you will have to do that on your own time -"After hours" or super early in the morning and probably (at home or away from work.). You might need someone to help format / edit your written proposal. And if you do meet don't give ALL of your proposal away all at once or be in a situation where it just get's immediately filed in the garbage can. A bit of "Selling" and a smidge of showmanship may be required but Soft sell not hard sell, like you have the juiciest worm and your Boss is the "hungry" fish as you roll up the proposal and walk away with it (after initial discussion). Peak their curiosity.


Takes time and diplomacy to implement change - sounds like there are 100 things that could be changed for the better in an incremental way. And also people may be fearful of losing their jobs - so don't underestimate the capacity of co-workers that perceive you as a threat to sabotage what you are trying to do. . you won't be thrown under the bus, but with boring repetitive tasks gives people plenty of time to devise the most ingenious ways to "Set you up for failure " lol. In some ways that can be fun to overcome.

So you have to pick (to begin with) one or two things that may be the easiest to implement in terms of bang for their buck and meeting deadlines and making things more efficient.

___________________________________________________________________________________________________-


So then there's the "Imaginary" conversation with your boss, "If I can make you this amount of $$$$$$$$$$ by doing this, this and that, can you pay me this $$$$$$+ and create the ENGINEERING position that I originally applied for"


^^^ So this is where Imaginary scenarios vs reality comes into play - where the "Rubber meets the road", as I would wager there is a high probability you will get/ be screwed on all this and will be forced to leave,

^^^^
but at least you have documentation of what you improved that you can take to your next job. ( at least that is one way to turn what is initially an exploitative situation to your advantage.) As there are things you can still learn there and gain experience of real process improvement and the bottom line. Ironically you mention that a lot of other shops in the area are in a similar situation, find one that will give you a break and then (possibly) a more receptive shop will in the end out-compete your former work place. Out of twenty shops you might find one that is a really good fit for you and what you can help in partnership "Raise up".

__________________

On reflection there sounds like there are literally 1000's of things you could improve from now till doomsday.

OTOH if the Boss is getting old etc. and improvements are made then maybe you have an opportunity to eventually manage the company, but proof of that will take years to gain that level of trust - hopefully the company is not run into the ground before adequate and incremental changes can be made.

On a practical / technical note there are also 100 specific interconnected process improvements you out line above.

______________________________________________________________________
 
Your writing skills are very poor !
If this illustrates how you think, you have a problem.
I tried to read the post, and just gave up.
 
Your writing skills are very poor !
If this illustrates how you think, you have a problem.
I tried to read the post, and just gave up.

Reading comprehension as well....can't read & follow a sticky up top about "make your titles descriptive"

Must be a pothead.
 
Did your supervisor actually cuss at you and throw parts?

Get it on video and get a lawyer

It sucks to have to think this way but nobody has to put up with abuse like that.
 
Your description reminds me of stuff I put up with in the past. Funny thing is that now when I look back it makes me more upset than at the time.

In the past I didn't mind so much putting up with stuff in order to pay a house down or advance into something better in the future.
But when some folks don't have much time left then robbing a bank is an option ...
 
I don't think the guy sounds like a pothead, ever read any of Kevin Potter's posts? Early ones in particular. Smart guy, really smart. OP sounds like a smart guy too looking for advice, and no surprise cameraman gave a bunch that was good, EG distilled the situation, and DD came in to dump.

OP- sounds like a shitty shop. If you can manage to find a way to communicate it _might_ work, otherwise, look elsewhere. If you do what you say there's work. Don't waste time getting shit on.
 
Some reformatting - emphasis added [],

First I would like to thank you for taking the time to read this. [!]


I don't like to get long winded but I'm at my wits end.

Recently i got a job in a job shop as a machinist. [Originally] I interviewed for an engineering position but the company at that time [was in desperate need for ] more machinists. Although the interview went really well, for the engineering spot I (instead) agreed to a spot as a machinist and was told what I would be doing as far as setting up and running mills - [even though ] I am a lathe guy [!].

That's super interesting right there ^^^, - someone applies to an Engineering job position, and then is TOLD they have to dooooo millwork even though they are actually a lathe guy ~ like WTF ???

How does that happen ?

<snip for clarity>

I am a lathe guy, I have a ton of experience with y axis live tool sub spindle lathes programming and setting up .

([The actual job I applied for was a process engineer for the lathe department)

[Later during the interview / walk around the plant ???]

[ I started to learn that this place uses edge finders on virtually all the mills, and so I (tactfully) explained (and perhaps rather awkwardly that ) there might be a learning curve (from me) , as I am more used to using a digital probe on the mills [that ] I've ran, set up and programmed in the past.

The overall aspect of many of the key processes being run here seemed very outdated
.

[What's not clear ^^^ who is it a learning curve for ? ] <--- presumably OP with "ancient" techniques - and the staff that might need to (eventually) learn new "Digital" probing techniques ?

Very light editing (respectfully) / untangling for easier "access" - perfection is not being sought here , but basic or cursory understanding.

I even walked around with the GM around the 5 axis machines and broke down how I would set up program and run a aerospace part and he was excited for me to start.

^^^ Sounds like a difference in perception there, between Boss and applicant (maybe) :scratchchin:


so I've been here for a couple months now first week was very basic I set up and ran a 5 axis mill and a 3 axis mill my supervisor was very impressed and even told me how good I was doing and everything else...

[somehow in spite of all that ],

however,

the last few weeks I've been in a de-bur room deburring parts that from my knowledge are already way past due,


( on a good day they take about 3 hours a part to deburr).

I've offered input to my supervisor to reduce the deburr time since a lot of it was pretty basic like running a chamfer mill outside of the pockets to break very sharp edges but instead of positive feed back I got

" that's not your job to worry about what we do we've done it this way for years !"


OK ...



so I asked why I was back there doing deburr work when I was hired to run a machine and was told it was because, [you guessed it ],


I was the new guy,



witch I "understood" - :rolleyes5: - so I did the work.

once the order was done I went back to a machine.

A few days later (?) - , I came in early one morning and was told to run a weird part, and told my supervisor that I wasn't too comfortable with it and was told to ask a co worker how to do it and follow the set up notes. so I did exactly that...

(never the less and unfortunately )

I had a part move in the fixture so I stopped and found something else to do till the other operator who usually ran those parts came in so I could ask.

I started up the machine I usually ran and did my normal thing checked the coolant warmed up the spindle and my supervisor comes over red faced mad and tells me <snip>

"why did you scrap those parts there's 4 of them there when i tell you to do something you f&^%ing do it!"

so I told him that I ran one, and it moved I do not know were (the other) FOUR parts came from ????

so the normal operator said: "oh must of been night shift I didn't know anyone was running it - :rolleyes5: - or id left a note - its not your fault that's just how he is " "He" in this case being the supervisor.


The supervisor comes and grabs me and ask me to set up a very old machine (a 97 Fadal ) I explained <snip> I wasn't familiar with that particular control and asked for help.

So far ^^^ sounds like they are trying to "humble you" through deliberate and devious ways, sort of break you down / f*ck with you a bit. But overall seems there's a lot of deliberate manipulation going on here from other co-workers - essentially you are being triangulated to get in trouble with your (not very good) boss . [ basically set on a deliberate collision course with your boss by a deliberately manipulative co-worker that basically hates you and hates your boss. ] ~ Sort of a win-win (for such a manipulative individual) - especially if the said '3rd party or co-worker" is threatened by your presence also.

^^^ Sort of a toxic "waste dump" or toxic situation, but maybe there are some good people that work there also ?




he (the supervisor) [told me] explained how to operate the machine very clearly and concisely, ~ ( perhaps the machine he started out on, a machine he knew inside and out but probably hadn't spent any real time at in years ) ...

Later,



<snip> when I came back from break, I noticed he was messing with it and threw a part on my table and said

" you forgot to move your edge finder I thought I told you to pay attention!!".

I didn't say anything I walked back to my machine did my task then the next morning I had parts to deburr and bend back into tolerance.

:scratchchin:


yes I said that correctly bend parts back into tolerance,

(interestingly ) <snip> no one else had any clue how to "bend parts back into tolerance", ~ so I messed with it,

and messed with it,

and didn't get a lot done and I walk to my supervisor and told him (seems nearly impossible to do) ,

and his response was : " its ok we will get them tomorrow I know they aren't easy" ,

to only come in the very next day to be told I'm not trying hard enough and to pull my head out of "somewhere" :rolleyes5:.

OK...

Important point coming up,



now I do NOT want you to think this is a bash post cause it isn't

:scratchchin:


and yes I have looked for work else where but it seems like a lot of these job shops in my area have the same problems as this. I do not mind the work but as the title says in this situation what would you do with that going on?

Sounds like they are in a bit of trouble,

They see your potential but frankly really don't know what to do with you.

On the one hand they see you need to be trained and on the other hand they see you as a threat, and YES they are f*cking with you.

(maybe because they don't want to learn probing - given that probing (+ better / simple software interfaces for programming in an in-process way) would actually "FIX" most of the (technical) problems here. ~ Sounds like the supervisor is sh*t scared of probing (for whatever reason) or at least very fearful.

Not sure that "probing*" is gonna "FIX" your supervisor though.


If you see potential in the company and other people then one day maybe you take "His" job. ~ "He" the supervisor may implicitly know and understand that.

+ "attitude " of He told me this .. I told him that, he tol*d me to take my head out of ... I told him that ... ,

Not really he told me this , I explained that, He showed me how to, I learnt that... (and so on). - Beyond generational management styles (sounds like).




("Bigulated" ^^^ for smart-phone users. ).


______________________________________________________________________________


* There are some rarer cases in tool and die work where chair edge finders are used.

** There are now probing software and routines that can be run off a tablet and retroactively fitted/ interfaced to older machines and controls.


______________________________________________________________________________________________


Some times a little risky to go over the heads of your immediate supervisor and have a one-on-one with the GM - who seems to actually like your "approach" ? [Nothing ventured nothing gained - but ... you have to assess the risks here...].
 
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I have witnessed bullying like this at work recently:

It started with a female behind a desk, "Stuart ! Make the tea . " . Soon another worker joined in, "Yeah Stu I'm thirsty" , then a third , until Stuart stopped what he was doing and walked to the kitchen.

I followed him to the kitchen where he put the kettle on and started to wash the cups , then he said " Do you want one Bill?"

"Coffee black ,one sugar plase Stu" I replied, and then "You know Stu , you don't have to put-up with this, you are the Boss here , you could fire them all...."

It's a happy firm :-)
 
On a basic level, your problem is you lack respect for others. I suspect that the way others treat you is a reflection of that.

How do I know you lack respect for others?

You write a pile of shit and expect others to wade through it. It's one long run-on sentence with poor grammar and punctuation to boot. If you want people to listen to you, don't first fill their ears with goat pellets. Don't use 100 words when 10 will do.
 
I don't think the guy sounds like a pothead, ever read any of Kevin Potter's posts? Early ones in particular. Smart guy, really smart. OP sounds like a smart guy too looking for advice, and no surprise cameraman gave a bunch that was good, EG distilled the situation, and DD came in to dump.

OP- sounds like a shitty shop. If you can manage to find a way to communicate it _might_ work, otherwise, look elsewhere. If you do what you say there's work. Don't waste time getting shit on.

Are you in the USofA ?
Doo you smoke pot ?
 
Did your supervisor actually cuss at you and throw parts?

Get it on video and get a lawyer

It sucks to have to think this way but nobody has to put up with abuse like that.

Color me surprised, you're in Washington, snowflake capital of the world.

There is no need to get a lawyer, if you don't like your work environment.....leave.
 
I have worked with many an engineer over the years, and have never known one with such pitiful writing skills. A dime gets you a dollar if you graduated from college.
 
Readers digest version ?

So the readers digest version.

GM (General Manager) likes DMusk, and it's clear that OP would benefit the bottom line (if trained and integrated into the company properly).

OP's immediate supervisor and certain employees are being deliberately manipulative to obstruct and devalue DMusk's progress. Moreover DMusk's value potential (to the company) is being deliberately destroyed by those that perceive him as a threat.

"Value" is actively being destroyed in a personnel related form of "Vandalism" to the company.

OP is unable to benefit the company and the GM's/ company's aims are being derailed.

What should OP do ?

What are the risks of going over the heads of immediate supervisors ?

Assuming there is an HR, what are the risks of complaining to HR about the situation ?

______________________________________________________________________________________________________


Seems the supervisor is de-railing the directives of the company anyway. I.e. there are managerial problems higher up.

[ Side note: IME the lab-rats in the maze all turn on each-other because the jerks peering in on said rats'-maze (wearing white lab-coats and holding clip boards) are the actual cause of such precipitated dysfunctional and counter productive behavior patterns. Sometimes there are a few bad apples and sometimes applicants are wholly unfit for the task in hand in spite of generous in-house (structured) training programs. ].

_______________


OP could devise a new thread title perhaps.

"Potentially good employees crushed and "spat out" by bad company culture and management" - what do you do ?
(Managers' and new-hires' perspectives).

How does this benefit the bottom line and help us (in the USA) to compete globally when this type of BS, i.e. - entrenched obstructive and manipulative work-place patterns of behavior and management styles seems to be the "Norm" in US manufacturing ?

______________________________________________


Sarcasmaholics Anonymous | Burnistoun - YouTube

^^^ Sarcasmaholics Anonymous | Burnistoun
 
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I have worked with many an engineer over the years, and have never known one with such pitiful writing skills. A dime gets you a dollar if you graduated from college.

More of a UK style "Engineer" / machinist (definition) as op states , perhaps (shrugging shoulders) ?

DMusk / Op ~ ([The actual job I applied for was (as a) "process engineer for the lathe department" )

Tablets and mobile phones / smart phones not so great for formatting and punctuation etc.
 








 
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