When buying and selling on classified. How much do I trust you.

sicero · Jan 25, 2011

Normal procedure is for the seller to have his money in hand before sending the item. As a seller, I am asking you to trust me with your money and trust I will send the item as discribed in a reasonable amount of time.
Lots of times when a buyer tells me a check is sent, I go ahead and send the item. I usually don't send before that, in case the buyer changes his mind.
If I make an item,part or whatever, I often times tell the buyer to send me a check after they know it works as it should.
Now I am talking about small amounts of money. Less than $100.
I don't ask or expect this from a seller although, some do the same as I.
I don't do this on ebay either. Just on a couple forums. Kenny

Conrad Hoffman · Jan 25, 2011

Within a known community, like this one or some of the photography forums, I have a huge amount of trust and have had nothing be excellent experiences with everybody. FWIW, if you like the convenience of PayPal, the seller assumes essentially all risk. For small amounts that's fine, but I'd never use it for larger transactions. If you sell on eBay (I don't) you pretty much have to take PayPal, and IMHO the risk of problems escalates. Everything I've ever gotten from eBay that wasn't new has had at least some minor and poorly disclosed issue. My belief is if you adopt the simple philosophy of "delight the customer" you'll usually do well.

CH

mark thomas · Jan 25, 2011

I've sold some small items on PM over the years, and I always ask for address as soon as someone says they want the item, then I ship right away. I will admit I've not been paid a couple times, which rather surprised me given the buyers are active contributors here. It hasn't changed my attitude of trust here however. I extrapolate from the predominate experience, not the exceptional ones.

Frank Ford · Jan 25, 2011

Mark -

I agree! If you change your behavior towards others because of the actions of one bad guy, you're allowing that guy more power over you than he deserves.

PeterJ · Jan 25, 2011

Agreed . Trust promotes honest behavior .
I have sent eBay buyers their item before money order arrived and not been burned .
If I do get burned , I learn something about that person ; it's a small lesson usually .
Wouldn't expect to get an education for free .

mrainey · Jan 25, 2011

I've been selling software to machinists for the past six years. I've found that members of the machining community are almost always straight shooters. If a man tells me the check's in the mail, I'll let him have the software. Losses from fraud have been very small.

Close Tolerance Software

Mud · Jan 25, 2011

mark thomas said:
I will admit I've not been paid a couple times, which rather surprised me given the buyers are active contributors here.

I find that disappointing. Personally I think you should ask the individual publicly on the forum to pay you if private request go unheeded. I trust those who participate here, if only because I think they don't want to be embarrassed. If someone takes advantage of that trust, I think they need to be called on it. If I don't hear negatives, I assume someone is trustworthy here. I want that trust to have a reason.

To the OP - The only time I've been burned here was by an individual who sold only, and did not participate otherwise. I tracked him down through google, because he was listed as the pastor of his church(!!!) and I managed to squeeze my money back out of him after many calls and I eventually had an attorney friend in NYC call him. The message to me was don't trust those who don't participate.

ray french · Jan 25, 2011

I've sold quite a few items here and have only really been burned one time just recently.Well not really burned(I still have the lathe)but I feel like he ruined it for others that may have wanted the lathe at the same time he did.I'll not mention a name as he has mysteriously dissappeared since this happened.

surplusjohn · Jan 25, 2011

my late ex father in law had a little mail order business for 30 years selling a door catch for small planes [Skycatch]. he did not take credit cards, guys [all pilots] would call him up and order one he would put it in the mail and the buyer would mail check. He never lost a dime doing that.

snowman · Jan 25, 2011

I've been around the forum long enough to recognize names. There are a lot of people here I would ship to if they said they couldn't afford to pay me for a month.

At the same time, people know me as someone who ships slow...so by the time they got the item, I'd probably receive the check.

Newman109 · Jan 25, 2011

I would have no concern buying or selling on this forum. Some of the members have PayPal and that can take some of the fear out of the transaction but it does cost the seller a fee.

I recently bought two control transformers from a member here and it went perfectly. It was a PayPal transaction, which I prefer since I can do that online with no credit card and no trip into town for a money order.

No worries on my part here at all.

Armenius · Jan 25, 2011

I have bought one item through this forum and the deal went very well; I believe the seller mailed it before he received payment. The item was better than claimed and better than the pic the seller emailed me.

In 1995 I began selling design drawings for an item of interest to the live steam locomotive fraternity. Because of the cost/difficulty of international money transfer I asked that buyers simply send cash wrapped in a sheet of paper by regular mail. In over 30 such transactions, from all over the world, I have never been stiffed.

Perhaps people that build stuff with their hands are of a trustworthy nature? This would be an interesting study.

Arminius

gmatov · Jan 25, 2011

I have sold items, here, and have NEVER been stiffed. One buyer was slow in paying, but explained that he had been shuttling back and forth to another state with an emergency.

I did not ever dun him, nor was the amount enough that it would have been a great loss to me. Were that payment not ever sent, it would be about a 3% loss to me. Not worth worrying about.

I do not ask for money in hand before sending whatever. I meet all of you here, and peer pressure seems to be more than adequate, as well that I have read of only 2 cases of problems in many thousands of posts, both of which were fairly resolved. I'd trust the Board's members with about anything I have to sell. I only wish I could list all that I have that I no longer need.

At my age, lots of this stuff is gonna go into the dumpster, some day, when my kids take over. Along with about 10 thousand books. Maybe just 3 or 4 but lots.

Cheers,

George

mark thomas · Jan 25, 2011

Mud said:
I find that disappointing. Personally I think you should ask the individual publicly on the forum to pay you if private request go unheeded. I trust those who participate here, if only because I think they don't want to be embarrassed. If someone takes advantage of that trust, I think they need to be called on it. If I don't hear negatives, I assume someone is trustworthy here. I want that trust to have a reason.

Well, I respect your position, but I feel that although we "meet" here in a public forum, we make a private sales transaction, and I would rather leave the issue private. I am not comfortable using the forum to my own ends to attempt to shame a buyer.

If I thought the buyer was a criminal, willfully scamming, or grossly abusive, and clearly likely to put others at risk, I would issue a warning here. But in the cases I've encountered, I rather suspect it's far more mundane -- forgetfulness, laziness, perhaps run-of-the-mill rudeness, but not rising to a great offense.

Also, I admit I did not pester the buyers. They said they would pay, and they did not. I don't think I even sent them a single nag reminder. If you have to be reminded of the promises you make and the debts you incur -- and if actually receiving the item is not sufficient reminder -- then you've already said enough about yourself. Public shame would not give me any pleasure.

As an aside, I sold something to the OP once, and he promptly paid me. Actually, to be more precise, I gave him something and he promptly paid me for shipping.

And fwiw, one of the people who never paid me was the same situation -- I advertised something as a give away, asking only reimbursement for shipping. In one sense, it almost seems a greater offense, to not even get reimbursement for shipping when you give things away. But I'm philosophical about this. The things I give away are like faceplates and steady rests for old lathes. I don't really view these as gifts to the people, rather I view it as re-uniting the parts with the machines they belong to.

And perhaps there's a selfish side: I secretly hope it will give me good karma and one day someone will have some parts I need!

fciron · Jan 26, 2011

Well, before I committed a day to fetching a lathe from Medway, Ohio I did a search by username to see get an idea of the other guys PM history. Odds are that people doing one sale have done others before, plus you can get an idea of their attitude/reputation.

I've done a couple of purchases here and they've gone well. Heck, I had to burn rubber out of Kenny's place because he kept trying to put more tooling in my truck.

viper · Jan 26, 2011

Hosed

Well, I for one took a LARGE bath on a CNC lathe from a dealer here and not from just anyone on the site. i partially blame myself for not flying to the East coast to inspect the machine under power but I guess I expected the machine dealer to be able to accurately describe and document the machine. I got an expensive lesson that dealers are only concerned about one thing, their pocket book.

Machine showed up with multiple bearings out, noisy axis, bolt missing all over the place, LCD screen quit after 10 min and was obvious the dealer did a "quick swap" (putty filling gaps), etc. We are still to this day repairing that machine. It was also said to have a Fanuc control and all the Fanuc books were sent BUT this machine did not have ONE Fanuc board in it!!!

I could go on and on and this one has proved the worst purchase we have ever made. We paid full price for a good working machine and got a basket case. The machine was cryloned inside and out. Looked great in the pics and even had a vid of it running and I commented on some noises and that really should have been a red flag for me.

Every one of the live tools was VERY worn out with about .010 of radial play in them!!! I mean, all one has to do is grab the tool and wiggle it and realize there is something wrong... Lesson learned hard and fast, I am not sure I can ever trust a dealer here again... As for the general members, I think the majority here are very upstanding people. However, after our machine "bath", I will either be looking for something in the "very cheap" range or I will personally inspect the machine under power. It does not take a rocket scientist to walk the axis back and forth against a tenths gauge to check for additional backlash as well as check the machine comp tables to see if the axis are much good.

I guess I figured because of this person's status on this site, the quality of the machine in question would be a non-issue. We have yet to even make a part on it...

PaulM · Jan 26, 2011

All the transactions I've done hear have been great. When I sell something I generally try to ship after we agree on a deal, and when I buy something if using a check I tell the seller its OK with me if they want to wait for the check to clear. I sold one item where the money never showed up (I shipped after we agreed on the deal and we are talking small dollars), I told the buyer that it was my loss if the post office lost it since he should not have to pay twice, and he sent a second payment anyway!

So yes I trust the people here especially if I have seen them post other info.

Much better environment here than say craigslsit - I recently had an agreement with a local seller on an arbor press. We agreed on the price and the time I would pick up the next day. The next morning I got an email indicating he sold it to someone else - no way to do business as far as I'm concerned.

Paul

InnovativeMach · Jan 26, 2011

viper said:
Well, I for one took a LARGE bath on a CNC lathe from a dealer here and not from just anyone on the site. i partially blame myself for not flying to the East coast to inspect the machine under power but I guess I expected the machine dealer to be able to accurately describe and document the machine. I got an expensive lesson that dealers are only concerned about one thing, their pocket book.

Machine showed up with multiple bearings out, noisy axis, bolt missing all over the place, LCD screen quit after 10 min and was obvious the dealer did a "quick swap" (putty filling gaps), etc. We are still to this day repairing that machine. It was also said to have a Fanuc control and all the Fanuc books were sent BUT this machine did not have ONE Fanuc board in it!!!

I could go on and on and this one has proved the worst purchase we have ever made. We paid full price for a good working machine and got a basket case. The machine was cryloned inside and out. Looked great in the pics and even had a vid of it running and I commented on some noises and that really should have been a red flag for me.

Every one of the live tools was VERY worn out with about .010 of radial play in them!!! I mean, all one has to do is grab the tool and wiggle it and realize there is something wrong... Lesson learned hard and fast, I am not sure I can ever trust a dealer here again... As for the general members, I think the majority here are very upstanding people. However, after our machine "bath", I will either be looking for something in the "very cheap" range or I will personally inspect the machine under power. It does not take a rocket scientist to walk the axis back and forth against a tenths gauge to check for additional backlash as well as check the machine comp tables to see if the axis are much good.

I guess I figured because of this person's status on this site, the quality of the machine in question would be a non-issue. We have yet to even make a part on it...

As a machine tool dealer it's sad when things like this happen. Most offer a 30 day return, which seems like it should be standard. Obviously on brokered machines that is not possible but I always recommend spending the 100-300 to inspect the machine as a kind of warranty.

As for being weary of paying someone before something ships, I totally understand the feeling and from time to time have customers address the same concerns with me. I myself feel the same way. I would imagine you could tell if something was shady, I have only heard of 1 used machinery dealer in 15 years just ripping people off(theft wise). I think in general if you have any concerns you should bring them up, if they can't be resolved then it wasn't meant to be. I lose a couple deals a year with government agencies who need to pay after they hook a machine up and can't even accept COD terms, but I'm sure they are willing to pay more to have someone take a risk or wait 6 months for payment...

Used CNC

mark thomas · Jan 26, 2011

PaulM said:
Much better environment here than say craigslsit - I recently had an agreement with a local seller on an arbor press. We agreed on the price and the time I would pick up the next day. The next morning I got an email indicating he sold it to someone else - no way to do business as far as I'm concerned.

I think that's the norm for craigslist. In the past I sold some items there, and it consistently turned out to be more work than it's worth. Like arranging time to meet and buyer never showing up. Or buyer showing up and then offering only absurd low-ball price, and then some wanting to stand around and haggle endlessly when I decline. Just an incredible waste of time. And on top of that, some of the people who have come to look at things seem like they might actually have some to case the joint.

ray french · Jan 26, 2011

"And on top of that, some prople who have come to look at things seem like they might actually have come to casr the joint."

I get that same feeling especially when they start to wonder around areas of the shop that have nothing to do with why they are there.I feel like if a person has some interest other than what is actually being sold then they should ask your permission to snoop around.Irritates the hell out of me.

When buying and selling on classified. How much do I trust you.

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