Why are dividing heads still made with B&S tapers?

richard newman · Oct 19, 2019

Looking around at new, mostly imported small dividing heads, it seems they are all made with B&S 7 tapers. Why not 5C, which is so much more common in shops?

karl · Oct 19, 2019

Just a guess, but when Uncle Mao stole the plans that's what was indicated and they reasoned that if the Round Eyes made them that way so will we.
Karl

morsetaper2 · Oct 19, 2019

karl said:
Just a guess, but when Uncle Mao stole the plans that's what was indicated and they reasoned that if the Round Eyes made them that way so will we.
Karl

Have to agree w/ that. Wonder why they haven't ripped off the Hardinge 5C DH yet?

EPAIII · Oct 19, 2019

You said "imports". The Chinese shops are not cutting edge innovators. They are Xerox machines for metal. They COPY! They don't even do a good or proper investigation to find what to copy; they just copy whatever older design they can get their hands on. And they don't even do a good job of copying; the imported 1-2-3 blocks are a testament to that. They may be made to accurate dimensions and good parallelism, but the holes, threaded and non-threaded are totally useless. Bad copy of what was originally a good design.

I am surprised that you are finding B&S tapers. I have an import RT and it has a Morse taper which is a lot easier to find and is probably better than a 5C for this because it is the same as my lathe spindle. So I can purchase an unhardened MT adopter and just throw it in my lathe to machine whatever I need on the end. But then, many lathes do have 5C collet holders: I hope to make one for mine.

I do not have a dividing head but I would guess that some well known, US or European maker of dividing heads used the B&S taper that you are finding. And that's the one they copied.

With just a quick internet search I found that one supplier, MSC, had three dividing heads: one with a B&S taper and two with Morse tapers. I suggest that you widen your search.

L Vanice · Oct 19, 2019

richard newman said:
Looking around at new, mostly imported small dividing heads, it seems they are all made with B&S 7 tapers. Why not 5C, which is so much more common in shops?

Most new dividing heads are based upon the very old Brown & Sharpe designs, which obviously had B&S tapers in the spindle. B&S designed the B&S taper specifically for milling applications. It has worked for over 100 years, so why change to Morse taper ot whatever? I have an old L-W (USA) dividing head that is not a B&S copy and even it has a 9 B&S spindle.

As for 5C collet dividing heads, Elgin in Chicago and Hardinge made them. They also made horizontal milling machines with 5C spindles. It is a great idea, but was not copied by others, whether in the USA or Asia. Elgin was a small outfit and their products are seldom seen. But eBay usually has several Hardinge dividing heads and TM or UM horizontal mills. One of the drawbacks of the lack of copies of the Hardinge mill design is that 5C mill-specific tooling (not collets) is scarce and expensive. I have a few Weldon brand 5C end mill holders, but have never seen any other examples. All my other 5C mill tooling is original old Hardinge stuff that was quite expensive.

Larry

Ohio Mike · Oct 19, 2019

The short answer because people keep buying them.

richard newman · Oct 19, 2019

I'm aware of the Hardinge and Elgin dividing heads, and am keeping my eyes open for a reasonably (to me) priced one. And I get that the B&S7 was their milling machine taper. But that was designed for holding cutting tools, which require some serious gripping, as opposed to work holding.

Just saying that 5C would be way more convenient for me, and probably lots of other users.

L Vanice · Oct 19, 2019

I bought my Japanese copy of a B&S DH in 1975 or so, right after buying my new mill. I bought 7 B&S collets for it and cut dozens of gears for my Hardinge and watchmaker lathes, using arbors I made to fit in the 1/2" collet supported in the DH tailstock. It worked fine.

In the years since I made those gears, I have bought about six Hardinge dividing heads and a Hardinge TM mill. But I have not used the Hardinge stuff to make a gear. Been thinking about it though, and might do it yet if the need becomes greater. It might be more convenient, as you say, but I won't know for sure until I actually do it.

Larry

rickseeman · Oct 24, 2019

I think my Cincinnati has a #10 B & S taper

Zahnrad Kopf · Oct 24, 2019

L Vanice said:
... I bought 7 B&S collets for it and cut dozens of gears for my Hardinge and watchmaker lathes, using arbors I made to fit in the 1/2" collet supported in the DH tailstock. It worked fine.

In the years since I made those gears, I have bought about six Hardinge dividing heads and a Hardinge TM mill. But I have not used the Hardinge stuff to make a gear. Been thinking about it though, and might do it yet if the need becomes greater.

Larry,

Has there been some resurgence of these things? I ask, because we make them from time to time and the request is always seemingly out of the blue. However, in the last 9 months we have made three complete sets for the dividing heads. Given how much of a minority these things are, that's a veritable hot streak. I ask, because I estimate that given your activities you might be tuned into what's driving the desires.

Thanks.

L Vanice · Oct 24, 2019

Zahnrad Kopf said:
Larry,

Has there been some resurgence of these things? I ask, because we make them from time to time and the request is always seemingly out of the blue. However, in the last 9 months we have made three complete sets for the dividing heads. Given how much of a minority these things are, that's a veritable hot streak. I ask, because I estimate that given your activities you might be tuned into what's driving the desires.

Thanks.

I am not clear on what you made when you say "three complete sets for the dividing heads." If you mean the change gears for use with the UM mill and the associated universal dividing head and gear box, then I can only say that stuff is very uncommon and I suspect the people who actually make spiral gears on them are also uncommon. I have the plain TM mill and only one of my Hardinge dividing heads is the universal type, which I will never use, of course.

On the other hand, change gears for the Hardinge HLV-H lathes have a special tooth form and are more likely to attract buyers. But there is no "set" of such gears. The lathes have a QC box, but you need extra gears to cut odd pitch threads, one or two gears, maybe.

The Hardinge gears I made are standard 30 DP 14.5 PA for antique screw cutting and thread chasing attachments.

Larry

Zahnrad Kopf · Oct 25, 2019

Larry,

Yes. Apologies for my lack of phrasing clarity. My rush to type got the better of me.

Yes, the last three were for dividing head change gear sets, although we have made a number of gears for people wishing to have or fill out their Metric capabilities. Both happen just infrequently enough that I could never keep straight which was which until recently. After we started making our custom gear shaping cutters, I went ahead and designed one specifically for the HLV's special stub tooth. Probably not worth it economically, but since I wanted to practice with something, it seemed as good an effort as any, and now I know we will never have to worry about it again.

I understand when we get requests for the lathe gears, with their being so different. I simply found it surprising that we had three requests for the dividing head gears in such succession.

Ohio Mike · Oct 25, 2019

Zahnrad Kopf said:
Larry,

Yes. Apologies for my lack of phrasing clarity. My rush to type got the better of me.

Yes, the last three were for dividing head change gear sets, although we have made a number of gears for people wishing to have or fill out their Metric capabilities. Both happen just infrequently enough that I could never keep straight which was which until recently. After we started making our custom gear shaping cutters, I went ahead and designed one specifically for the HLV's special stub tooth. Probably not worth it economically, but since I wanted to practice with something, it seemed as good an effort as any, and now I know we will never have to worry about it again.

I understand when we get requests for the lathe gears, with their being so different. I simply found it surprising that we had three requests for the dividing head gears in such succession.

What are the chances set number one went to someone with a YouTube or Instagram presence. When some of these guys post about a new tool you can watch the eBay prices jump.

thermite · Oct 25, 2019

richard newman said:
I'm aware of the Hardinge and Elgin dividing heads, and am keeping my eyes open for a reasonably (to me) priced one. And I get that the B&S7 was their milling machine taper. But that was designed for holding cutting tools, which require some serious gripping, as opposed to work holding.

Just saying that 5C would be way more convenient for me, and probably lots of other users.

I have lots of 5C. Lathe. Spin-indexer. Collet blocks. Not mill.

Glad the Ellis DH has the more useful #9 B&S though, as two of my mills use it, too.

There might be the mystery solved. A DH is used on a mill more than anywhere else. Kinda handy it takes the same tooling already in the zone.

Arbors, short or long, more than one diameter, face & shell mill holders, same again. Side-lock holders, ditto. Collet and master-collet systems, check.

All of which I already have to have in #9 B&S, and right ON or near the mills I would be using the DH with.

Commonality. Extended use of the tooling investment. Convenience. Fewer therbligs.

A mill with 5C? Almost as rare as it is inferior for serious milling, thankfully. So whom would need a matching DH?

What's so mysterious about any of that?

rickseeman · Oct 26, 2019

Zahnrad Kopf said:
Larry,

Has there been some resurgence of these things? I ask, because we make them from time to time and the request is always seemingly out of the blue. However, in the last 9 months we have made three complete sets for the dividing heads. Given how much of a minority these things are, that's a veritable hot streak. I ask, because I estimate that given your activities you might be tuned into what's driving the desires.

Thanks.

YouTube, YouTube and YouTube. There are so many good machine shop videos on there you want to do it. My mothers 4 brothers all went to California during the war and became machinists. It's in my blood. Now I'm a geezer. And finally have a shop at the house of my own to play in. I've always been a closet machinist. Now I'm coming out. And I want it all. And I want to learn it all. I watch Tubalcain, Abom, Keith Rucker, TOT, Steve Summers and others. When I see they have a toy I like, I pause the video, run over to the computer and buy one, and then continue watching the video. This has been going on every single night for 2 years. I've had as many as 18 packages come in one day by UPS, USPS and FedEx. I've gone thru $40,000 so far and I want more. These guys on YouTube are doing more than anyone else in the world for developing interest in manual machining. There are people in countries that you have never heard of wanting to learn and learning machining from them. And to answer your original question, I have bought 3 dividing heads, a Cincinnati, a K & T Astronomical and a Chinese. I've even used them. That was fun. And I would like to thank PracticalMachinist for having this wonderful website. Have a nice day guys. And thank you for being on this website and helping people. The accumulation of knowledge on this website is beyond belief.

Zahnrad Kopf · Oct 26, 2019

Ohio Mike said:
What are the chances set number one went to someone with a YouTube or Instagram presence. When some of these guys post about a new tool you can watch the eBay prices jump.

In my estimation, zero. I typically try to find out where our customers come from. ( mostly in an effort to determine what we are doing correctly, and incorrectly, in an effort to maximize upon the former and minimize the latter ) All three were random connections, as best as I can tell.

rickseeman said:
YouTube, YouTube and YouTube. There are so many good machine shop videos on there you want to do it. My mothers 4 brothers all went to California during the war and became machinists. It's in my blood. Now I'm a geezer. And finally have a shop at the house of my own to play in. I've always been a closet machinist. Now I'm coming out. And I want it all. And I want to learn it all. I watch Tubalcain, Abom, Keith Rucker, TOT, Steve Summers and others. When I see they have a toy I like, I pause the video, run over to the computer and buy one, and then continue watching the video. This has been going on every single night for 2 years. I've had as many as 18 packages come in one day by UPS, USPS and FedEx. I've gone thru $40,000 so far and I want more. These guys on YouTube are doing more than anyone else in the world for developing interest in manual machining. There are people in countries that you have never heard of wanting to learn and learning machining from them. And to answer your original question, I have bought 3 dividing heads, a Cincinnati, a K & T Astronomical and a Chinese. I've even used them. That was fun. And I would like to thank PracticalMachinist for having this wonderful website. Have a nice day guys. And thank you for being on this website and helping people. The accumulation of knowledge on this website is beyond belief.

Oh my gods. I laughed WAY too much and too hard at that. Thank you for that.

neanderthal mach · Oct 26, 2019

richard newman said:
Looking around at new, mostly imported small dividing heads, it seems they are all made with B&S 7 tapers. Why not 5C, which is so much more common in shops?

"Some" but not all of the import heads are still using the B&S tapers. In fact the sales literature for the specifications of the heads may not be current to what they actually are. My Tai. built Vertex universal head was listed by the dealer as having a B&S taper when I bought it. It's not, for mine they used a MT 4 in the spindle taper. VERTEX-MILLING-GRINDING-TOOLING-CNC-LATHE-GRINDER Those equipment dealers don't always update there specifications when changes are made. Even less so for the cheap as possible off shore tooling since they usually don't give a damn about the end user anyway. I'd certainly agree that 5C would be the obvious and much better idea. For my 10" (approx.) swing head there's not enough meat left in the spindle to go to the 5C without adding a large extension to the spindle nose and you still wouldn't have the full through the spindle capability that the 5C can hold. To do that you'd have to increase the spindles diameter, then increase the bearings to use it, then totally redesign the head casting to take the larger bearings and spindle. But tbh they also need to redesign all these heads anyway and start offering anything that's better than the threaded spindle nose. Yes they work and have proved that for a hell of a long time. There's obviously much better spindle mounts now and have been for a very long time. When was the last time anyone saw a new industrial sized and quality lathe being made today with a threaded spindle nose? With CNC I doubt any manufacturer sells enough new manual DH's to justify a re-designed head. So it's logically more than doubtful any of this will ever happen.

Where I am it's a machine tool desert or I would have looked for a complete and very good condition original B&S universal head or the same manufactured by many others. Where you are it shouldn't be too tough to find a good condition small North American made DH that's within driving range to closely inspect it in person before buying. Some of the non Vertex Chinese made smaller heads than mine that I've seen in semi local tool dealers looked like absolute crap. If there that bad on the outside you can bet the internals that are the important part are even worse. Buying a cheap inaccurate DH is pretty much pointless since it's accuracy of dividing is what your buying one for in the first place. Vertex sure ain't and never will be equal to a B&S head, but there about the minimum I'd settle for if buying new.

thermite · Oct 26, 2019

neanderthal mach said:
"Some" but not all of the import heads are still using the B&S tapers. In fact the sales literature for the specifications of the heads may not be current to what they actually are. My Tai. built Vertex universal head was listed by the dealer as having a B&S taper when I bought it. It's not, for mine they used a MT 4 in the spindle taper. VERTEX-MILLING-GRINDING-TOOLING-CNC-LATHE-GRINDER Those equipment dealers don't always update there specifications when changes are made. Even less so for the cheap as possible off shore tooling since they usually don't give a damn about the end user anyway. I'd certainly agree that 5C would be the obvious and much better idea. For my 10" (approx.) swing head there's not enough meat left in the spindle to go to the 5C without adding a large extension to the spindle nose and you still wouldn't have the full through the spindle capability that the 5C can hold. To do that you'd have to increase the spindles diameter, then increase the bearings to use it, then totally redesign the head casting to take the larger bearings and spindle. But tbh they also need to redesign all these heads anyway and start offering anything that's better than the threaded spindle nose. Yes they work and have proved that for a hell of a long time. There's obviously much better spindle mounts now and have been for a very long time. When was the last time anyone saw a new industrial sized and quality lathe being made today with a threaded spindle nose? With CNC I doubt any manufacturer sells enough new manual DH's to justify a re-designed head. So it's logically more than doubtful any of this will ever happen.

Where I am it's a machine tool desert or I would have looked for a complete and very good condition original B&S universal head or the same manufactured by many others. Where you are it shouldn't be too tough to find a good condition small North American made DH that's within driving range to closely inspect it in person before buying. Some of the non Vertex Chinese made smaller heads than mine that I've seen in semi local tool dealers looked like absolute crap. If there that bad on the outside you can bet the internals that are the important part are even worse. Buying a cheap inaccurate DH is pretty much pointless since it's accuracy of dividing is what your buying one for in the first place. Vertex sure ain't and never will be equal to a B&S head, but there about the minimum I'd settle for if buying new.

Yer not so much wrong (you ain't. Much.) as obsolete. CNC not only 'exists", it b****Y dominates. Indexers and positioners as well as inbuilt degree and interpolation capability as part of spindle and/or "live" tool positioning.

"Freebies" off the back of other features, IOW.

Not a lot of market, going forward, for the legacy all-manual DH.

Whom is it, even still buys these? "Hoarders" more than hobbyists who are actual users. Electronics are far easier to utilize.

Even then, such of it as still exists is more flexibly served by a rotab with DH add-on kit - Inja easily as much the source as Taiwan or PRC. The rotab has a life of its own that IS still widely useful

neanderthal mach · Oct 26, 2019

LOL, well at just barely over legal retirement age then yeah I guess that obsolete term now fits pretty tightly. And since I am one of them wannabe machinist "hobbyist's" that also fit's just as well. Despite it's low efficiency, mistake prone if yer not paying attention, and now considered absolutely antique today. I happen to really enjoy the challenges of manual machining. But I can afford that inefficiency.I gotta Newall dro and mostly all Mit digital measuring equipment. Even a cross slide mounted live tooling capability for my manual lathe. So I'm maybe not quite a spring calipers, line shaft, high carbon steel, rocker tool post using dinosaur. :-) I'd also be real stupid to not fully agree about all those nice to have side freebies electronics and cnc can provide. But it sure killed off some really good and competent tool making company's. It likely started just as many as well I suppose. Still more than saddening to see all that gone now. But Indian and bottom of the barrel Chinese made tooling doesn't get through the door to my shop. Having at least a minimum standard of personal integrity about what your willing to settle for isn't optional imo. I've been burned enough in the past to now know a bit better I hope.

rickseeman · Oct 27, 2019

neanderthal mach said:
But Indian and bottom of the barrel Chinese made tooling doesn't get through the door to my shop.

I agree with you. But I buy some Chinese to have until I can find the good stuff. I buy Cle Forge drills and Greenfield tap and dies with the size stamped in. (Not that new laser etched stuff.) You can't buy this stuff in the store like the old days and it takes forever to collect a full set one at a time.

Why are dividing heads still made with B&S tapers?

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