Why Gas Engines Are Far From Dead - Biggest EV Problems
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    Default Why Gas Engines Are Far From Dead - Biggest EV Problems

    This is an interesting video.

    YouTube

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    I gave up after snoozing through the energy density

    Oh, yeah, we were all wrong you cannot make a BEV, it makes no sense

    Oh, wait, maybe not

    What is the efficiency of an ICE?

    A gas engine, about 20 percent. if it isn't idling, when it is zero percent efficient

    A BEV runs about 60 percent efficient[grid to road]



    GAWD do we really have to go after the same stupid over and over?

    I have watched that guy before and he is up and down.

    OF course ICE engines are going to be with us for a while

    There is no need to even make the argument

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    Quote Originally Posted by gustafson View Post

    What is the efficiency of an ICE?

    A gas engine, about 20 percent. if it isn't idling, when it is zero percent efficient

    A BEV runs about 60 percent efficient[grid to road]
    And a power plant runs between 35-40% fuel-to-grid. And the grid has losses too (we'll call it 10% here, but 8-15 is common).

    0.38 * 0.90 * 0.60 = 0.205

    Po-tay-to, Po-tah-to.

    The potential for benefit is in future development (more room to grow for BEVs in general) and use of renewables, which is still the minority of power used for most folks.

    I'm not totally against the idea of driving a BEV, but at this time they do not outperform ICE in enough ways to justify their expense. In my opinion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BoxcarPete View Post
    And a power plant runs between 35-40% fuel-to-grid. And the grid has losses too (we'll call it 10% here, but 8-15 is common).

    0.38 * 0.90 * 0.60 = 0.205

    Po-tay-to, Po-tah-to.

    The potential for benefit is in future development (more room to grow for BEVs in general) and use of renewables, which is still the minority of power used for most folks.

    I'm not totally against the idea of driving a BEV, but at this time they do not outperform ICE in enough ways to justify their expense. In my opinion.
    shall we go back to the well and figure out the total energy usage cradle to grave?

    I don't think it will look any better for ICE

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    Quote Originally Posted by gustafson View Post
    shall we go back to the well and figure out the total energy usage cradle to grave?

    I don't think it will look any better for ICE

    Better go back to the coal mine for the BEV also...... level the playing field....

    Truth is, they pretty much all suck. Global cost of PV panels, global cost of a wind turbine (that actually produces about 1/8 of its nominal power rating), etc.

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    The new breed of internal combustion engines are a lot more efficient than the old ones. Mazda is claiming 56% on the skyactiv-3, Toyota has an 2.0L engine that beats 40%, AMG has developed engines that hit or beat 50% thermal efficiency.

    Technology is not standing still...

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    Quote Originally Posted by JST View Post
    Better go back to the coal mine for the BEV also...... level the playing field....

    Truth is, they pretty much all suck. Global cost of PV panels, global cost of a wind turbine (that actually produces about 1/8 of its nominal power rating), etc.
    so because right wing idiots are artificially propping up the coal industry, I must explain that too?

    dumbass BS

    zero coal in mass

    what, one third wind in Oklahoma?

    again, same BS different day

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    Quote Originally Posted by jancollc View Post
    The new breed of internal combustion engines are a lot more efficient than the old ones. Mazda is claiming 56% on the skyactiv-3, Toyota has an 2.0L engine that beats 40%, AMG has developed engines that hit or beat 50% thermal efficiency.

    Technology is not standing still...
    End of the day, not near that, at all

    Skyactiv 27 mpg city, big woop

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    Quote Originally Posted by gustafson View Post
    End of the day, not near that, at all

    Skyactiv 27 mpg city, big woop
    Moving the goalposts? We weren't talking about MPG, we were talking about thermal efficiency.

    Quote Originally Posted by gustafson View Post
    ,,,What is the efficiency of an ICE?

    A gas engine, about 20 percent. if it isn't idling, when it is zero percent efficient

    A BEV runs about 60 percent efficient[grid to road]
    Mazda:
    Mazda's 'Skyactiv-3' Engine Could Be As Clean As Some Electrics With 56% Thermal Efficiency

    Toyota:
    Toyota Develops World's Most Thermally Efficient 2.0-Liter Engine - The Drive

    AMG:
    Mercedes F1 engine is a true modern marvel | Get the latest car news, car reviews, auto show updates, and racing news from Autoweek. News for the auto enthusiast.

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    My little Hyundai Accent with a 1.6L and manual transmission gets 35 mpg in the worst weather, closer to 40 in the summer, if you don't drive like an idiot. Not as good as an EV, but way cheaper.

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    thermal efficiency is MPG[and there is no 'thermal efficiency for BEV so more BS]

    it is you who move the goalposts

    future tech vs now EVs

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    Quote Originally Posted by gustafson View Post
    thermal efficiency is MPG[and there is no 'thermal efficiency for BEV so more BS]

    it is you who move the goalposts

    future tech vs now EVs
    BS.

    Thermal efficiency is the ratio of heat to work produced.

    MPG is miles per gallon, and it is vehicle specific. You put the same engine in a truck or a car, the fuel mileage will vary. The efficiency of the engine is the same, but it takes more work to move the truck.

    The links I posted are not "future tech" they are here today.

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    Didn't bother to watch the video but my take is that IC engines and BEVs will coexist in our world for at least a generation. Each has uses it's best suited for and with increasing IC efficiency they use far less fuel. Many SUVs today use as much fuel as a small economy car did only a few years ago.

    Technology will improve both and each has its place. What makes hybrids so fuel efficient is electric propulsion from a dead start supplemented by highly fuel-efficient Atkinson cycle engines.

    Electric: Best for stop and go driving.

    IC engine: Best for high speed driving.

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    IC engine technology has been improving for years. The Toyota V6 of only ten years ago made more horsepower normally aspirated than similar size supercharged V6s did ten years earlier and with only a slight MPG penalty over the smaller and way less powerful 4-banger. Some of the newer engine designs on the road NOW make both look like primitive antiques.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Conrad Hoffman View Post
    My little Hyundai Accent with a 1.6L and manual transmission gets 35 mpg in the worst weather, closer to 40 in the summer, if you don't drive like an idiot. Not as good as an EV, but way cheaper.
    VW Golf mk7 with 1.4t petrol engine and DSG gearbox (dual clutch manual) will get you 50-55mpg, and that is with all the extra safety and comfort included, if they would put this ICE in the mk1 rabbit (weighs in at about 2/3 of the mk7), those figures would look even better

    and EV Golf costs like 2x as that 1.4t dsg petrol one, I wonder how really justified is that 2x price tag for those EVs, they keep on telling that the initial costs is later offset by the low running cost, but that IMHO is just a tale they use to squeeze last $$$ out of the existing ICE supply chain

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    Quote Originally Posted by jancollc View Post
    BS.

    Thermal efficiency is the ratio of heat to work produced.

    MPG is miles per gallon, and it is vehicle specific. You put the same engine in a truck or a car, the fuel mileage will vary. The efficiency of the engine is the same, but it takes more work to move the truck.

    The links I posted are not "future tech" they are here today.
    If it does not increase MPG, it is irrelevant


    any more than making the exhaust blue would

    and read your posts, not one is a production engine

    you are trying to compare current production vehicles with research projects

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    [QUOTE=jancollc;3496849]Moving the goalposts? We weren't talking about MPG, we were talking about thermal efficiency.



    Mazda:
    Mazda's 'Skyactiv-3' Engine Could Be As Clean As Some Electrics With 56% Thermal Efficiency

    He says IF they can get to 56%, not that they have achieved it.

    Bill

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    Quote Originally Posted by gustafson View Post
    ...and read your posts, not one is a production engine

    you are trying to compare current production vehicles with research projects
    Sorry to inform you but Toyota has been using that 2.0L engine in cars since 2018.

    Hyundai, Mazda, et al will be along shortly...

    The M20A engine family is an inline-four engine series that was first introduced in 2018 for the E210 series Corolla.

    M20A-FKS

    The standard version with 13.0:1 compression ratio achieving 40% thermal efficiency.

    Applications:

    2018–present Corolla (MZEA12)
    2018–present C-HR/IZOA (MAXA10)
    2018–present RAV4 (MXAA54)
    2018–present Lexus UX 200 (MZAA10)
    2019–present Camry (MXVA71)
    Toyota dynamic force engines - Wikipedia

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    What we need to do is learn to rectify thermal motion. that way everything warmer than absolute zero will contain its own energy. Richard Feynman tried, but it didn't work out.

    Bill

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    Quote Originally Posted by 9100 View Post
    ...he says if they can get to 56%, not that they have achieved it.

    Bill
    Yes, it is not available right now- that's not the point. IC engines are getting MUCH better. The 20% efficiency for ICE prev stated is a thing of the past. No car maker is going to introduce a new vehicle with that generation of technology.

    Every time you plug in an EV or flip the light switch, you are still burning fossil fuels. If you're in a region that gets it's electricity from fossil fuels (pretty much everywhere), a true comparison has to include that little detail.

    Look at the cars being made today- or the ones that will be introduced in the next 1-2 years. Then consider long it will actually take to transition away from fossil fuels. It wouldn't surprise me one bit if a new ICE Toyota is actually more "green" than a Tesla 3 or similar.

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