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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    Can't be. If every single bit of fuel burnt became CO2 then at ~ 7 lbs/gal for diesel, that would be 340 gallons of diesel. No way.
    Yeah, I am not sure how you calculate CO2 to get a container from China, but it is probably easy to calculate the difference to get a gallon of oil from Saudi Arabia. Then you burn it and it is gone

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    You guys do know there is a deep research body that one can reference for these sorts of questions don’t you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrStretch View Post
    Here in Philly we have the following different electric transports:
    Third rail: broad st line and el.
    Catenary: Trolleys, regional rail and trackless trolleys.
    Battery: some of the bus routes are now electric which, really stupidly, are replacing diesel buses which replaced trolley lines, so going full circle but not in the best way.
    Probably one of the worst thing that happened to this country in the 20th century was the disassembly of most of the trolley lines.
    In nearby Belmont, MA they have buses that connect to overhead high-voltage lines. Probably the best overall solution if they wanted to go with electric buses would be buses that ran on overhead wires along main streets that also had the ability to disconnect and run on battery power for short side legs.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrStretch View Post
    We will never solve the problem if we stick with the 20th century idea of everybody driving, doesn't matter if it's gas or electric. What is efficient is electric mass transit.
    If we want to survive as a species we need to get used to living closer together and consuming less.
    What’s this “We” shit, Kemosabe? You are of course free to choose to live in a city apartment and take public transportation but you and the other climatists can’t make that choice for the rest of us. More and more it is beginning to look as though “climate change” is nothing but a collectivist tool to force the kind of changes social engineers have desired for at least a half century. They haven’t proven their case and if anything the hypocrisy of the Carbon Bigfoots who lecture the rest of us while jetting around the globe and living in resource wasting luxury proves the opposite. If someone truly believed the planet was in imminent danger from CO2 emissions and yet behaved like that they would be arguably insane. If they aren't insane they are liars with an agenda and in either case WE would have to be crazy to listen to them.

    For quite some time now we’ve been harangued with:

    • “Peak Oil” where supplies were supposed to have been exhausted decades ago.
    • “The Population Bomb” which should have ended human life decades ago.
    • “Global Cooling” which then morphed into “Global Warming” when nature refused to cooperate and then again into “Climate Change” when nature again refused to cooperate.


    Now with the latest gloom and doom propaganda about "the Coronavirus" we are told that we must "prepare for permanent changes in how we live". That is an almost exact quote from one of this morning's local news broadcasts.

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  5. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trboatworks View Post
    You guys do know there is a deep research body that one can reference for these sorts of questions don’t you.
    have at it!

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    Quote Originally Posted by gustafson View Post
    Baloney

    A complete lie
    Huh? I'm not say it doesn't work. I'm saying it's not reliable. One cannot rely upon the wind to blow, especially when you consider that it must blow in a certain velocity range.

    Thus, every MW of wind generation requires a MW of reliable generation to back it up. The Southwest Power Pool has an order for how this generation is selected, largely based on fuel supply and heat rate.

    Attached are 2 snips from the SPP website, one showing the generation mix for the day, and one showing the generation mix at this moment. As you can see, they're different. If wind was reliable they'd be the same.

    Home - Southwest Power Pool

    capture.jpg
    capture.jpg

    Edit- and don't forget, you can't reasonably store the MW's from wind, either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trboatworks View Post
    You guys do know there is a deep research body that one can reference for these sorts of questions don’t you.
    Before I hit the books I run stuff through the smell test. 340 gallons of diesel to make something that costs $240 don't make-a no sense, no how, no way, no more research required


    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post

    • “Peak Oil” where supplies were supposed to have been exhausted decades ago.
    • “The Population Bomb” which should have ended human life decades ago.
    • “Global Cooling” which then morphed into “Global Warming” when nature refused to cooperate and then again into “Climate Change” when nature again refused to cooperate.
    This is bullshit, Scott.

    1) Peak oil will obviously happen at some point. The planet is finite, we know that. So burning it up taking the V10 pickup to the grocery store for a quart of milk is stupid. As a conservative, you should agree with that.

    2) The population bomb exists. C'mon over and try living with five times as many people per square foot as you have. Fun fun fun till daddy takes the t-bird away !

    And we had/have the one-child policy. Not a chance you guys could ever enact anything that sensible, you'd come up with "economic incentives" that mean only the rich could have children. Good idea.

    3) Global cooling was someone's idea that sounded good for a while, then other people looked deeper and discarded the premise. That's what science is about, having a theory then examining it further. It did not ever morph into global warming. That statement is an untruth.

    Your paranoia is not attractive. Yes, there are foolish dipshits out there who want to remake society to their own plan, on both sides of the fence. But we should not ignore real problems just because someone we don't like has a stupid plan. Face the problem and come up with a better solution instead.

    The one it seems you like, more of the same, is not going to work. I can tell you that from living in a place that has five times as many people in the same area. You don't have enough area to spread those people out on, at the per-person size you are accustomed to. And there's not enough resources in our solar system to support them, either.

    So, whatcha gonna do about it ? Putting your head in the sand isn't going to help. Denying global warming is getting to be silly. See what you can come up with that's useful, instead.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cole2534 View Post
    Huh? I'm not say it doesn't work. I'm saying it's not reliable. One cannot rely upon the wind to blow, especially when you consider that it must blow in a certain velocity range.

    Thus, every MW of wind generation requires a MW of reliable generation to back it up. The Southwest Power Pool has an order for how this generation is selected, largely based on fuel supply and heat rate.

    Attached are 2 snips from the SPP website, one showing the generation mix for the day, and one showing the generation mix at this moment. As you can see, they're different. If wind was reliable they'd be the same.

    Home - Southwest Power Pool

    capture.jpg
    capture.jpg

    Edit- and don't forget, you can't reasonably store the MW's from wind, either.
    They do it near Ludington Michigan. Lots of wind turbines that supply the grid and when they don't need the power for homes, etc. they pump water into the worlds largest battery, the Ludington Pumping Station.

    https://www.consumersenergy.com/comp...ro-electricity

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    Quote Originally Posted by Big B View Post
    They do it near Ludington Michigan. Lots of wind turbines that supply the grid and when they don't need the power for homes, etc. they pump water into the worlds largest battery, the Ludington Pumping Station.

    https://www.consumersenergy.com/comp...ro-electricity
    I'd heard them talking about that in CA, wasn't aware that the idea was in practice anywhere else. Thanks!

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    Quote Originally Posted by jancollc View Post
    Yes, it is not available right now- that's not the point. IC engines are getting MUCH better. The 20% efficiency for ICE prev stated is a thing of the past. No car maker is going to introduce a new vehicle with that generation of technology.

    Every time you plug in an EV or flip the light switch, you are still burning fossil fuels. If you're in a region that gets it's electricity from fossil fuels (pretty much everywhere), a true comparison has to include that little detail.

    Look at the cars being made today- or the ones that will be introduced in the next 1-2 years. Then consider long it will actually take to transition away from fossil fuels. It wouldn't surprise me one bit if a new ICE Toyota is actually more "green" than a Tesla 3 or similar.
    I would add the correction that in areas powered largely by hydroelectric or nuclear power the EV is not "burning" fuels. I don't include solar and wind because both must be backed up by equal capacity of quick response (natural gas) generation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    In nearby Belmont, MA they have buses that connect to overhead high-voltage lines. Probably the best overall solution if they wanted to go with electric buses would be buses that ran on overhead wires along main streets that also had the ability to disconnect and run on battery power for short side legs.

    .....
    You DO know that the idea you propose was done 60+ years ago, right?

    But it was not accepted well, the same sort of folks who joyfully burned the "obsolete and old-fashioned" trolley cars (there are pics of that being done in a ceremony in St Paul MN) also destroyed most all of the trolley/battery bus systems, just as joyfully, in the name of "progress". I have ridden on trolley buses in Chicago, but there are none left.

    As for the rest of the stuff..... adapt or die is the way of the world. Has been as long as there has been one.

    But, the reporters are , on technical subjects, often very ignorant. They correctly report that something is happening, but the results, details, and needed responses they often are wrong about So "permanent (radical) changes in how we live" may not be so accurate.

    Not advisable to pay a lot of attention to speculations, just to facts.

    For that matter, technically savvy folks usually get facts right, but often miss with predictions.... Remember the Segway? And all the techie folks crowing that "cities would be built around the technology"? Ain't seein that just yet, are yuh?

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    Quote Originally Posted by JST View Post
    You DO know that the idea you propose was done 60+ years ago, right?

    But it was not accepted well, the same sort of folks who joyfully burned the "obsolete and old-fashioned" trolley cars (there are pics of that being done in a ceremony in St Paul MN) also destroyed most all of the trolley/battery bus systems, just as joyfully, in the name of "progress". I have ridden on trolley buses in Chicago, but there are none left.

    As for the rest of the stuff..... adapt or die is the way of the world. Has been as long as there has been one.

    But, the reporters are , on technical subjects, often very ignorant. They correctly report that something is happening, but the results, details, and needed responses they often are wrong about So "permanent (radical) changes in how we live" may not be so accurate.

    Not advisable to pay a lot of attention to speculations, just to facts.

    For that matter, technically savvy folks usually get facts right, but often miss with predictions.... Remember the Segway? And all the techie folks crowing that "cities would be built around the technology"? Ain't seein that just yet, are yuh?
    Yes, I am well aware of the old "trackless trolleys". I rode on them as a kid, as well as tracked trolleys that shared roads with cars and went as far out from Boston as Watertown. The tracks were a hazard to cars and pedestrians, especially when wet and there were many collisions involving trolleys and cars or pedestrians.

    IMO this push to battery powered everything is politically motivated and does not really address the core problems of transportation to and from cities. This morning there was another report on the local news saying that both commuter rail riders and car drivers were complaining of congestion and long commute times.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    The tracks were a hazard to cars and pedestrians, especially when wet and there were many collisions involving trolleys and cars or pedestrians.
    My once (and only) visit to philly (IIRC 1975), riding with my parents in a trolley car, got T-boned by a land yacht of a Lincoln, knocked us off the tracks....Jeesh.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post

    IMO this push to battery powered everything is politically motivated and does not really address the core problems of transportation to and from cities. This morning there was another report on the local news saying that both commuter rail riders and car drivers were complaining of congestion and long commute times.
    and the push to retain ICE engines is politically motivated blah blah blah
    The death of electric trolleys was engineered by GM who made the buses....

    we need more public transit, much more

    that will help congestion

    you need to stop thinking selfishly, and start thinking how more people on the T will be fewer people in your way on the highway

    We cannot add more lanes to the highways unless you agree with endless gov't takings, until there are all highways and nowhere to be.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gustafson View Post
    and the push to retain ICE engines is politically motivated blah blah blah
    The death of electric trolleys was engineered by GM who made the buses....

    we need more public transit, much more

    that will help congestion

    you need to stop thinking selfishly, and start thinking how more people on the T will be fewer people in your way on the highway

    We cannot add more lanes to the highways unless you agree with endless gov't takings, until there are all highways and nowhere to be.
    When was the last time you rode the T? During peak hours it's usually standing room only and on a recent ride we had to get off between stations and wait 20 minutes for another crowded train to arrive after the one we were on broke down. This is unfortunately not a rare event.

    The MBTA is always looking for more money and to date the quality of service does not reflect the enormous amount of money it has absorbed from taxpayers.

    MBTA faces $111 million budget gap | Metro US

    Baker calls for Uber, Lyft fee hike, more MBTA funds in budget proposal - The Boston Globe

    Massachusetts agencies paid out $399.15 million in overtime during 2019

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    When was the last time you rode the T? During peak hours it's usually standing room only and on a recent ride we had to get off between stations and wait 20 minutes for another crowded train to arrive after the one we were on broke down. This is unfortunately not a rare event.

    The MBTA is always looking for more money and to date the quality of service does not reflect the enormous amount of money it has absorbed from taxpayers.

    MBTA faces $111 million budget gap | Metro US

    Baker calls for Uber, Lyft fee hike, more MBTA funds in budget proposal - The Boston Globe

    Massachusetts agencies paid out $399.15 million in overtime during 2019
    Which is why we need more, I mean seriously

    And car accidents and massive delays are a daily event

    HOw much taxpayer money have the highways absorbed

    selfish thinking

    highways do not scale

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    When was the last time you rode the T? During peak hours it's usually standing room only ...
    Why don't you put every one of those people in their own car and see how that works out for you ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by gustafson View Post
    Which is why we need more, I mean seriously

    And car accidents and massive delays are a daily event

    HOw much taxpayer money have the highways absorbed

    selfish thinking

    highways do not scale
    Once again you have ducked the question, which was when was the last time YOU actually rode on the T?

    I'm not asking about your progressive political theory but rather you have PERSONALLY experienced the joy of MBTA ridership.

    I realize that as a Gloucester resident (as per your last real location) you may not get to Boston much but it's still a valid question.

    Your current location of "People's Republic" isn't even in compliance with forum rules. I suspect you still live in sleepy little white bread Gloucester and wish to hide that from those you preach the joys of urbanization to.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    Once again you have ducked the question, which was when was the last time YOU actually rode on the T?

    I'm not asking about your progressive political theory but rather you have PERSONALLY experienced the joy of MBTA ridership.
    I use it all the time, I do not use it for work as a work and live locally.

    And the reason I do not use it more is because there is not enough of it. When I drove 40 miles to Cambridge every day, I did not take the T, because there was not enough of it. The exact opposite of your point.

    We need more of it so it is less crowded, and we need it to go more places to take the load off of the roads.



    And your ignorant rants about whether I use something are just your way of avoiding the real point. That you have complaints with no solutions, that you cannot see beyond the end of your nose and willfully resist things that will benefit anyone else but you

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    [QUOTE=EmanuelGoldstein;3497332]
    2) The population bomb exists. C'mon over and try living with five times as many people per square foot as you have. Fun fun fun till daddy takes the t-bird away !

    More to the point, Jared Dimond's boom "collapse" wherein the premise is: it's all fun and games until something goes wrong, and then all
    the extra people starve to death. And something always goes wrong.

    Like trading oil energy for food....

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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    Can't be. If every single bit of fuel burnt became CO2 then at ~ 7 lbs/gal for diesel, that would be 340 gallons of diesel. No way.
    I meant the total amount of co2 created from the silicon that came out of the ground to the ups truck delivery guys' lunch.

    Money and energy is fungible.

    Anyhow my point was minimum 5 year payoff to break even.
    If you live in hawaii or california and pay 25 cents a kwh then 2 to 3 years.

    Usa gdp is 3$ per kilogram of co2. If you remove all thier fancy accounting gimics such as including government spending in gdp, more like 2$ per kilo or 1$ per pound.


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