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  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by gustafson View Post
    it is exactly the point

    again when it idles, zero percent thermal efficiency[that is why EVs are more efficient in the city]
    "Compact cars that carry a 2-liter capacity engine burn around 0.16 – 0.3 gallons of gas on per hour basis."
    So if I spend 5 hours idling I'll waste a gallon of gas. Big whoop!

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  3. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by JST View Post
    The chinese can afford to build entire ghost cities that have a population entirely made up of a few bureaucrats and a security force. Bully for them, they have an autocratic society in which that stuff can happen. Cost? Not an issue. They can print money if needed, and you have to accept it.
    Ben Bernanke des not exist ? Billions of dollars printed so that Goldman-Sachs would not have to miss a bonus did not happen ? People's savings decimated by the democratically-elected government of the US was my imagination ?

    We have a different situation, and cities are funded by the public, not through a dictator (yet), so things need to actually be paid for.
    Have to be paid for .... like the trillion dollars you pissed down the toilet in Afghanistan ? Not one of the alleged goals of that occupation achieved ? What was that money, imaginary ? What could have been done in the US for that trillion dollars ? Not to mention the 800 billion you piss away annually on a military that couldn't stop fifteen ragheads with box cutters ?

    Fiscally responsible, oh yeah.

    Like hell.

    Stupid is closer to the truth.

  4. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forestgnome View Post
    When your car dies by the side of the road, where do you walk to get more electricity?
    I used to let the horses rest and graze on some grass. Now, I have to find a 110 outlet and plug in the goesoutta - and the goesinto to the electrified buggy.

  5. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forestgnome View Post
    "Compact cars that carry a 2-liter capacity engine burn around 0.16 – 0.3 gallons of gas on per hour basis."
    So if I spend 5 hours idling I'll waste a gallon of gas. Big whoop!
    OMG that would be a lot of money.
    And what does a cup of Starbucks fancy coffee cost?
    Wait, something is not right here. My coffee cup can't do 5 hours.

  6. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forestgnome View Post
    "Compact cars that carry a 2-liter capacity engine burn around 0.16 – 0.3 gallons of gas on per hour basis."
    So if I spend 5 hours idling I'll waste a gallon of gas. Big whoop!
    Actually according to your figures it could range from 0.8 to 1.5 gallons over 5 hours but you are correct that it is a fairly small amount of fuel. Many of us consider that a small issue for the convenience of refueling with a liquid. If the same effort were put into improving traffic flow as is being put towards serving EVs and self-driving cars far less fuel would be wasted by idling. I can't count the number of times I've sat uselessly at a traffic light while NOTHING came through on the lanes with a green light. It wastes not only fuel but also our time, and it wastes that time whether we are in an ICE vehicle or a BEV.

    Those Stop/Start engines reduce idling losses but many owners consider them a nuisance.

  7. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    Actually according to your figures it could range from 0.8 to 1.5 gallons over 5 hours but you are correct that it is a fairly small amount of fuel. Many of us consider that a small issue for the convenience of refueling with a liquid. If the same effort were put into improving traffic flow as is being put towards serving EVs and self-driving cars far less fuel would be wasted by idling. I can't count the number of times I've sat uselessly at a traffic light while NOTHING came through on the lanes with a green light. It wastes not only fuel but also our time, and it wastes that time whether we are in an ICE vehicle or a BEV.

    Those Stop/Start engines reduce idling losses but many owners consider them a nuisance.
    I'm halfway convinced that traffic lights still exist because of strip malls. There would be no way to turn into or out of their parking lots if traffic on the main roads flowed as well as it could with roundabout intersections. The traffic lights break things up and give people an opportunity to turn in the spaces between.

    It sounds even more like an excuse when I type it all out

  8. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoxcarPete View Post
    I'm halfway convinced that traffic lights still exist because of strip malls. There would be no way to turn into or out of their parking lots if traffic on the main roads flowed as well as it could with roundabout intersections. The traffic lights break things up and give people an opportunity to turn in the spaces between.

    It sounds even more like an excuse when I type it all out
    Rotaries (roundabouts as you and the Brits call them) have a mixed record on U.S. roads. they tend to have a higher rate of accidents than intersections with controls. Also, in many places such as the city I live in building them would require taking quite a few miles of private land. I usually encounter several lights during a drive of a mile or so. We are fairly spread out but our population numbers are in tens of thousands.

  9. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post


    Have to be paid for .... like the trillion dollars you pissed down the toilet in Afghanistan ?.
    Anyone who is not a complete ass, knows that "you" as applied to citizens of the US, is a plural, and inapplicable here. Unknown to you, in your haste to leave for the pleasures of a dictatorship where you may "disappear" with hundreds of thousands of others, not everyone thinks alike here, and not everyone believes those things that have been done were good.

    Regrettably, that "anyone" does not seem to apply to you.

    However, the US has (maybe) learned the lesson that the British learned first, and the Russians learned more recently. It would have been cheaper to learn it from history, or to refrain from dashing off to Iraq leaving things half done. A little less war profiteering would have helped as well.

    But, anyone who is not an ass (same caveat with respect to you) also knows that the chance that the saved money would have been spent wisely at home is "opening their mouth and proving it", to take the latter half of the famous saying..... (you can look it up sometime).

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  11. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    Rotaries (roundabouts as you and the Brits call them) have a mixed record on U.S. roads. they tend to have a higher rate of accidents than intersections with controls. Also, in many places such as the city I live in building them would require taking quite a few miles of private land. I usually encounter several lights during a drive of a mile or so. We are fairly spread out but our population numbers are in tens of thousands.
    Not sure what you mean by "mixed record" based on the fact that I've never seen a legitimate road safety study that didn't list a major (like 70-90% reduction in injuries and deaths) improvement in safety. The only single negative point was a single study that mentioned there was a 10-12% increase in "minor" injury-free collisions. Most studies list 30-40% reduction of crashes overall. Still seems overwhelmingly positive to me.

    "Fairly spread out but measured in tens of thousands" sounds exactly like the best place to put more roundabouts. Most of the time they don't even take up more space, on account of the fact that the ideal intersection to replace is one with 1-2 approach lanes that proliferate into right turn lane(s), left turn lane(s), and the straight through lane(s). Once the space taken up by all of those extra lanes is considered, a simple 2-lane traffic circle often fits within the same space.

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    Technically, a roundabout has radial entry and exit roads whereas a rotary has tangential entry and exit roads. Rotaries need to be far larger than roundabouts because the traffic is not slowed down at the entrance to them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    Rotaries (roundabouts as you and the Brits call them) have a mixed record on U.S. roads. they tend to have a higher rate of accidents than intersections with controls. Also, in many places such as the city I live in building them would require taking quite a few miles of private land. I usually encounter several lights during a drive of a mile or so. We are fairly spread out but our population numbers are in tens of thousands.
    The problem is they aren't banked enough..."go fast, turn left"....

    As a plus, with banking, valuable advertising space can generate much profits.

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    With lots of nice, well anchored, Amco Barriers so you don't have to waste effort on steering while you read the adverts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Rand View Post
    With lots of nice, well anchored, Amco Barriers so you don't have to waste effort on steering while you read the adverts.
    Nah...standard "Jersey Barriers" work well, designed by the New Jersey DOT.

    If they can keep New Jersey drivers all heading the same way....it's harder
    than herding cats.

  18. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Rand View Post
    Technically, a roundabout has radial entry and exit roads whereas a rotary has tangential entry and exit roads. Rotaries need to be far larger than roundabouts because the traffic is not slowed down at the entrance to them.

    What's the difference between "tangential" and "tangent"?

  19. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forestgnome View Post
    "Compact cars that carry a 2-liter capacity engine burn around 0.16 – 0.3 gallons of gas on per hour basis."
    So if I spend 5 hours idling I'll waste a gallon of gas. Big whoop!
    Big whoop?

    how many million cars Are on the road, or while sitting in that traffic, ponder all the other cars sitting in traffic[which is of course the definition of traffic after all]

    It is, in fact a big whoop

    again with the politics of selfishness

    being only able to ponder the effects on oneself

  20. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoxcarPete View Post
    I'm halfway convinced that traffic lights still exist because of strip malls. There would be no way to turn into or out of their parking lots if traffic on the main roads flowed as well as it could with roundabout intersections. The traffic lights break things up and give people an opportunity to turn in the spaces between.

    It sounds even more like an excuse when I type it all out

    Suburbs love traffic lights as a symbol of progress, when in that environment they are usually stupid.
    However, go into a real city and understand how it could not function without traffic lights

    Quote Originally Posted by BoxcarPete View Post
    Not sure what you mean by "mixed record" based on the fact that I've never seen a legitimate road safety study that didn't list a major (like 70-90% reduction in injuries and deaths) improvement in safety. The only single negative point was a single study that mentioned there was a 10-12% increase in "minor" injury-free collisions. Most studies list 30-40% reduction of crashes overall. Still seems overwhelmingly positive to me.

    "Fairly spread out but measured in tens of thousands" sounds exactly like the best place to put more roundabouts. Most of the time they don't even take up more space, on account of the fact that the ideal intersection to replace is one with 1-2 approach lanes that proliferate into right turn lane(s), left turn lane(s), and the straight through lane(s). Once the space taken up by all of those extra lanes is considered, a simple 2-lane traffic circle often fits within the same space.
    This is my understanding. And in personal terms, there are two rotaries followed by two traffic lights herabouts, and the major accidents are all at the first light, minor ones at the rotaries.

    I am a big fan of both rotaries and roundabouts, I think they should be more like the definition of roundabouts, as I tend to drive around them with my thumb over the horn button

  21. #137
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    With all due respect to the many traffic experts here, most of the traffic lights could not be replaced with rotaries, roundabouts, or unicorn racetracks. In many cases these are either 4-way intersections with heavier traffic on one route or busy side streets entering a busy route. In many cases they have put "No Right Turn On Red" signs to prevent red-lighted traffic from interfering with the flow on the main routes. Without lights it often becomes a frantic free-for-all with many accidents. So in most cases the lights are necessary but what I object to is sitting wasting time at a light that does not have to be red when there is no cross traffic. Many of these intersections already have buried sensor loops that detect cars so it is an issue of poor or deliberately buggered programming of the lights.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    With all due respect to the many traffic experts here, most of the traffic lights could not be replaced with rotaries, roundabouts, or unicorn racetracks. In many cases these are either 4-way intersections with heavier traffic on one route or busy side streets entering a busy route. In many cases they have put "No Right Turn On Red" signs to prevent red-lighted traffic from interfering with the flow on the main routes. Without lights it often becomes a frantic free-for-all with many accidents. So in most cases the lights are necessary but what I object to is sitting wasting time at a light that does not have to be red when there is no cross traffic. Many of these intersections already have buried sensor loops that detect cars so it is an issue of poor or deliberately buggered programming of the lights.
    No, you are correct, but many could, and many traffic lights are stupid.
    I navigate through one or two rotaries every day, and they greatly speed traffic, especially with asymmetric flows

    Two busy roads come together where traffic needs to turn left, a traffic light is frequently the best idea

    But come on, you sit at a light in podunk and wait,and tell me a 4 way stop is not a better idea

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    Quote Originally Posted by gustafson View Post
    No, you are correct, but many could, and many traffic lights are stupid.
    I navigate through one or two rotaries every day, and they greatly speed traffic, especially with asymmetric flows

    Two busy roads come together where traffic needs to turn left, a traffic light is frequently the best idea

    But come on, you sit at a light in podunk and wait,and tell me a 4 way stop is not a better idea
    I don't live in Podunk and many of our drivers are aggressive enough that you'd have to have a cop watching for a 4-way stop to be honored. Some of them don't stop for pedestrians in crosswalks and we've had a few pedestrians run down that way. I've crossed a street with a crossing light active and still had drivers ignore the red light and almost run over my toes. Thanks for reminding me. Pedestrian crossings are one of the factors why we need traffic lights. When they push the WALK button after a time all lights turn red and the crossing sign is illuminated. Without these controls we'd have a lot of dead pedestrians.

    With better control (smart traffic lights) many of the unnecessary delays could be reduced or eliminated, saving both time and fuel. Even BEVs have no advantage when the driver's time is wasted needlessly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tdmidget View Post
    What's the difference between "tangential" and "tangent"?

    Tangential is the adjective to describe something that is tangent?

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