Why are vertical mills more predominant that horizontals?
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    Default Why are vertical mills more predominant that horizontals?

    I've been wonderin this- why are verts so much more common than horiz?

    There's nothing about the head on a knee mill that couldn't made to work in a horizontal arrangement. The basic VMC rotated 90deg about its Y axis would be fantastic for chip clearing purposes.

    I've got to be missing something rather obvious, right?

    -Cole

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    Because the cutters are much cheaper ,and can be throwaway......also newbies dont get caught in a massive bustup when they inadvertently climb mill with small dia cutters.

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    Basic setups are easier and more visible on a vertical
    Yes chip removal is assisted by gravity with a horizontal

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    verticals vs horizontals... like cinci vs milwaukee or bpt vs lagun ? vertical mills with a quill
    can drill, tap , ect that other machines aren't set up to perform . that makes them much more useful.
    plus... the head can snease 360 degrees. but a real mill can run a monster facemill or a 2" drill
    without a hiccup.

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    Quote Originally Posted by john.k View Post
    Because the cutters are much cheaper ,and can be throwaway......also newbies dont get caught in a massive bustup when they inadvertently climb mill with small dia cutters.
    I don't think an endmill's price varies whether you spin it vertical or horizontal?

    Sent via CNC 88HS

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    Pretty sure he's comparing endmills against arbor-mounted disk-shaped cutters, or possibly shell mills.

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    I have an Italian universal horizontal mill (Mizal was the name) with a 2 axis universal vertical head on it. Used it for many years, basically in the vertical orientation. It had no quill, so not real handy for small drilling, but doable.

    You don't want to be using the horizontal spindle to drill or endmill with because you can't see WTF is going on unless you're standing somewhere where you can't reach any of the controls. You can make it work when you have to sometimes, but it can be a PITA.

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    Cost......

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    probably not runnnng an .375 endmill in a 50- taper holder at 1100 rpm?

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    Quote Originally Posted by HuFlungDung View Post
    I have an Italian universal horizontal mill (Mizal was the name) with a 2 axis universal vertical head on it. Used it for many years, basically in the vertical orientation. It had no quill, so not real handy for small drilling, but doable.

    You don't want to be using the horizontal spindle to drill or endmill with because you can't see WTF is going on unless you're standing somewhere where you can't reach any of the controls. You can make it work when you have to sometimes, but it can be a PITA.
    The old Van Norman that is rotting out here, it can "sort of" be operated from the front and from the rear.
    In the front of the machine, you have the handles, and each axis has a handle that when pushed one way
    engages the feed, and when pushed the other way rapids. There are duplicate handles on the backside of
    the table, so you actually can see.

    I believe the actual function of that, is that there can be 2 fixtures on the table. The guy on the front
    side of the machine can run a part on the right side of the table, while the guy on the back of the machine
    is loading a part on the left.. The the guy in the back can run his part, while the guy in the front
    reloads his.

    Old school production, its a '53. The only reason I have it is because my grandfather worked at Van
    Norman in the early 50's... Other wise I wouldn't have bought it.


    I'd much rather have something vertical with a quill. A horizontal is really really fricken
    handy when you NEED IT.. Otherwise its kind of a boat anchor. There is a reason you can get
    'em cheap.. I haven't looked in forever (don't really care), at this point you might have
    a hard time even finding them, and they still probably go for nothing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HuFlungDung View Post
    I have an Italian universal horizontal mill (Mizal was the name) with a 2 axis universal vertical head on it. Used it for many years, basically in the vertical orientation. It had no quill, so not real handy for small drilling, but doable.

    You don't want to be using the horizontal spindle to drill or endmill with because you can't see WTF is going on unless you're standing somewhere where you can't reach any of the controls. You can make it work when you have to sometimes, but it can be a PITA.
    Unless you have a Deckel, in which case you can control what you see (for Deckel one stands to the right of the machine and all controls are there on the right with you), PLUS if you have an FP2 or better, you get a quill on the horizontal spindle as well as the vertical spindle !!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by HuFlungDung View Post
    You don't want to be using the horizontal spindle to drill or endmill with because you can't see WTF is going on unless you're standing somewhere where you can't reach any of the controls.
    Quite true. This is why many of the larger horizontals had dual mechanical controls, so the operator could stand next to the left side (usually) of the column and see the cutter in the work.

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    And then there's the 2B Devlieg, but at 10,000 lbs and 8' x 10' of floor space, the Bridgeport is a lot more economical for the same 36" of table travel.

    Sent via CNC 88HS
    Funny

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cole2534 View Post
    I've got to be missing something rather obvious, right?
    Probably. Horizontals outnumber verticals 2:1 under my roof!
    Well.. the Quartet combo mill has both. It works. It was a bargain. It's all I need and more.

    But a B&S Universal-Universal, a Rambaudi, or any of several other combi mills are far saner arrangements.

    And there's your "real" answer.

    Every example I cited is half a century and more obsolete.
    Being able to "see" and guide the work only even matters on all-manuals.

    CNC enters? Cabinet doors go shut.
    A(ny) of many axes are wherever they need to be.

    An operator is not MEANT to "have his head in" and be hand-flying it.
    Code JF does what it was written to do. Wherever any given axis lives.

    "HMC" or "VMC" is not even the entire arsenal. Extra axis is an option. More than one, "extra", even. And live tooling can exist on any axis.

    The question you are asking has already been answered by designers ... of hundreds of speciality-optimized CNC machining centers. With a long list of options...

    To suit the needs. In their own corner of their own universe.
    The DOMINANT one! Done deal, and for long years, already.

    "Mooted point" I think the Lawsters call that?
    Or Maritool's Tee shirt?

    "Nobody Cares"
    "Work harder"

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    Well, you may be able to do the same things on each, but they each are somewhat better for certain tasks while not so convenient for others. For instance, the simple idea of using a milling vise could get complicated on a horizontal mill. I mean, it would need a rather large angle plate and two people to hold it in place while a third one bolted it to that angle plate. And slapping a V8 engine block on a vertical mill could not be done easily with a gantry crane.

    I see the horizontals being more suited to larger parts and more pieces between setups. And the verticals are faster to set up for smaller parts with frequent changes in the setups.

    Each can do some jobs faster and more easily and more important, more economically. And in a commercial shop, time is money and money is money.

    On top of that, modern, CNC machines can have multiple spindles at all kinds of angles.



    Quote Originally Posted by Cole2534 View Post
    I've been wonderin this- why are verts so much more common than horiz?

    There's nothing about the head on a knee mill that couldn't made to work in a horizontal arrangement. The basic VMC rotated 90deg about its Y axis would be fantastic for chip clearing purposes.

    I've got to be missing something rather obvious, right?

    -Cole

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    Quote Originally Posted by EPAIII View Post
    On top of that, modern, CNC machines can have multiple spindles at all kinds of angles.
    ...or in the big "portal" and gantry mills?

    More HP on a "mobile" head it can position any damned place than some folks have under the bonnet of the motorcar it could hold a dozen of!

    Kinda late in the century for the classical "smallholder" BirdPort VS K&T argument, ain't it?

    We "manualistas" are too-often living off the "table scraps" of a bygone age, too long already gone, yah?

    What was that line at the battle of Inkerman?

    C'est magnifique, mais ce n'est pas la guerre: c'est de la folie!

    It is magnificent, but it is not war: it is madness!

    Well? You'd have to know the British?

    The "Light Brigade":

    DID reach the Russian guns.
    DID saber the canoneers.
    DID even ride BACK.

    Wrong guns, wrong direction, foolish move, and terrible casualties ... or not.

    I did say "British?"


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    I have 2 Bridgeports and a Cincinnati horizontal and a Lucas HBM. I just recently bought a vertical head for the Cincinnati to be able to utilize the HP over the Bridgeports.

    Horizontals have their place, and if you find ways to utilize them, are quite profitable. I have a few jobs I run on the horizontal that nobody else would even quote around here. I can set it up and go run the lathe while it runs. Double the hourly rate by myself.



    Sent from my rotary dial flip fone

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    I guess it all boils down to setup needs.

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    ~70 years ago:
    Changes in tooling material that allowed faster spindle speeds
    Cheaper mass produced tooling

    Ability to quickly center drill, drill, c sink 4 different hole diameters quickly overwhelms the time spent removing stock in 4 passes instead of 1

    Funny how now the most productive machines are back to horizontal. What goes around comes around
    [edit]
    I imagine my 4 head drill press was covered with fixtures to drill holes on parts made on horizontals in 1942

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    Verticals are much more user friendly in lots of ways.

    Regards Tyrone.


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