Why are vertical mills more predominant that horizontals? - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrone Shoelaces View Post
    Verticals are much more user friendly in lots of ways.

    Regards Tyrone.
    Yeah true but when I wanted to true up a 20mm thick chunk of 304 it didn't go on the B/port. Bolting it to the horizontal mill table and running a TCT face cutter at low rpm and coarse feed cleaned it up in one pass with no broken tips.

    If I want to drill holes or use small cutters then sure, the B/port gets the job, but I'm not parting with my Vicky horizontal.

    PDW

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    Many of us saw a drill press as our first machine tool. You can hold the workpiece in one hand and operate the tool with the other. So naturally we morphed into using real machine tools with the same orientation.

    I have a vertical with a quill setting next to a horizontal with a traversing spindle. Which one does the work go to? The one thats easiest to set up, because its usually short duration repair work. If the features are 90 degrees and opposite to the locating face, it goes on the vertical. If the features are parallel with the locating face, it goes on the horizontal. If the features are 90 degrees to and the same side as the locating face, it goes on the radial arm.

    As far as verticals being more user friendly? That depends on the machines. If the part fits in a 6" Kurt vise, its hard to beat a Bridgeport Series I. As the workpieces get 8" vise sized or larger and need more than one hand to load, or need better than +/- .002 tolerances positioning, the knee mill looses favor quickly.

    When stuff gets big, it always goes on the horizontal. Size is nearly unlimited, as its open on the back, and its open on the top.

    If you think horizontals are clumsy and slow you have never used a DeVlieg.

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  4. #23
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    Or the shops trying to use an auto rise and fall bed mill as a general purpose machine for one offs......But nice big ones do sell cheap.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gbent View Post
    Many of us saw a drill press as our first machine tool. You can hold the workpiece in one hand and operate the tool with the other. So naturally we morphed into using real machine tools with the same orientation.

    I have a vertical with a quill setting next to a horizontal with a traversing spindle. Which one does the work go to? The one thats easiest to set up, because its usually short duration repair work. If the features are 90 degrees and opposite to the locating face, it goes on the vertical. If the features are parallel with the locating face, it goes on the horizontal. If the features are 90 degrees to and the same side as the locating face, it goes on the radial arm.

    As far as verticals being more user friendly? That depends on the machines. If the part fits in a 6" Kurt vise, its hard to beat a Bridgeport Series I. As the workpieces get 8" vise sized or larger and need more than one hand to load, or need better than +/- .002 tolerances positioning, the knee mill looses favor quickly.

    When stuff gets big, it always goes on the horizontal. Size is nearly unlimited, as its open on the back, and its open on the top.

    If you think horizontals are clumsy and slow you have never used a DeVlieg.
    They do make big verticals as well. Regarding “ DeVlieg’s “, I class those more as a hor bore than a horizontal mill.

    Regards Tyrone.

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    just get a badass vertical w/ a 40 taper... a ramboudi,shizouka,bpt series 2, cinci toolmaster,
    gorton mastermil, lagun v3 or 4 whatever... it will bridge the gap that you crave.

    doesn't mean i still don't want a cincinnati #4 or #5 . it's just that my floor would likely need to be
    reinforced, and my 10' door might not be tall enough.

    you can't beat old iron. my 1D toolmaster can run a 1" rougher in steel. my haas vf3 cannot. 2hp vs 20hp ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by tnmgcarbide View Post
    just get a badass vertical w/ a 40 taper... a ramboudi,shizouka,bpt series 2, cinci toolmaster,
    gorton mastermil, lagun v3 or 4 whatever... it will bridge the gap that you crave.

    doesn't mean i still don't want a cincinnati #4 or #5 . it's just that my floor would likely need to be
    reinforced, and my 10' door might not be tall enough.

    you can't beat old iron. my 1D toolmaster can run a 1" rougher in steel. my haas vf3 cannot. 2hp vs 20hp ?
    I don't understand WHY this keeps coming up?

    CNC, you get what has the flexibility for the work you have or will CHASE after and HARD! The conventional distinctions between H & V are blurred, even between lathe & mill. Use what makes the money bestest. Change it out when it no longer FITS the revenue stream.

    Do not ever "marry" a CNC critter. They are lazy whores too eager to turn parasite unless whipped daily and HARD with a real JOB to be done, and done fast and well.

    Manual? You don't "either-or" it to death any more than you would wear a left boot right foot bare on even days, a right boot, left foot bare, on odd days.

    You have your best ass-kicker boots on BOTH feet, and all the time!

    "Combo" manual mills only if you are merely PLAYING at it. (Guilty, as charged..)

    Converting the fool mill's "mode" by working FOR IT when it should be working FOR YOU eats all the NET revenue as wasted time, otherwise.

    F**k-around time is seldom directly billable.

    It becomes overhead "burden".

    And overhead burden is a tapeworm, first-class!

    Every DIME of it avoided? Goeth directly to the bottom line!

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  9. #27
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    i wear chippewa and carolina.

    that has to have been the most bizarre thing i've ever read.

    i love it.

    thanks.

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    Horizontal is a bloody side easier to cut divided disks perpendicular aka gears
    Other than that vertical is probably more friendly,
    Mark

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    Quote Originally Posted by tnmgcarbide View Post
    i wear chippewa and carolina.

    that has to have been the most bizarre thing i've ever read.

    i love it.

    thanks.
    "Bizarre" is the FUTILITY when you have f**ked the dog.. then go about like a beggar ...with a handful of cash.. trying to BUY BACK.. yesterday afternoon.

    Once already wasted.

    "Hacker's Laws"

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    Quote Originally Posted by boslab View Post
    Horizontal is a bloody side easier to cut divided disks perpendicular aka gears
    Other than that vertical is probably more friendly,
    Mark
    "Friendly"? As-in wouldn't mind if they share your toot-brush, swimming-pool, sleep comfy wit' yer dog without growling, or want to marry yer dotter?

    I don't ACTUALLY give a flying f**k if they are raging HOSTILE!.

    So long as each can be made to DO something useful or profitable.

    A(ny) machine-tool starts winking, whispering, and gently stroking my crotch?

    I'm frikin' grabbing my parachute and bailing TF OUT of the aircraft!


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    therehgggikug

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    Quote Originally Posted by tnmgcarbide View Post
    there's no "buy back" if they didn't sell it in the first place. ?

    and- i don't make it with dogs.... farm animals... if i can find my hip-waders maybe....to hold them still.
    otherwise, they'll run away
    Just carry a soggy cigar and wear a Bill Clinton mask, then..

    Shared a nice corner-office suite, 90 Longacre, London with an ex Colin-Chapman Kiwi. Buggers at HQ started running curious Executive "tours" to visit the "brain trust". I was hardly ever at a "desk", too much to do. But it annoyed him to be asked all the time what New Zealand life was LIKE

    I WAS there the day he ended the damned fool tours, all right!

    "Neoaw Zeeeealnd is a nation of only three million people.. and 30 million sheep!"

    "In Neoaw Zeeeealnd, the men are REAL MEN!"

    "....and the sheep are SCARED!"

    Guys at our level didn't worry about being put out of work.

    It was the fourth job in a row, same company, two continents, I had created off the back of seeing something truly critical needing properly dealt-with.

    Change the name over the door? Always meant more money. Didn't HAVE to ask.

    So you chose the interesting ones where there was something of value yet to be learnt and done.

    Life was MEANT to be that way. For everyone, actually. Humans are superbly efficient at covering our modest needs for nutrition and shelter.

    COW or a hummingbird is the one as has to eat non-stop all damned day. Not WE.

    So... when did we forget that learning and doing new things was fun, legal, and even paid well?

    Mought have been around the time we took up being "husbands" to cattle?

    Hear tell the ancient Farsi word for "wage war" was the same as "get more cows".


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  16. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by gustafson View Post
    I imagine my 4 head drill press was covered with fixtures to drill holes on parts made on horizontals in 1942
    OT from the original question:
    Imagine shelves full of box fixtures to be placed on the table of your drill and moved from one station to the next. Drill bushings in the fixture guide the machine and the fixture can be rotated to access all sides of the work.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cole2534 View Post
    I've been wonderin this- why are verts so much more common than horiz?

    There's nothing about the head on a knee mill that couldn't made to work in a horizontal arrangement. The basic VMC rotated 90deg about its Y axis would be fantastic for chip clearing purposes.

    I've got to be missing something rather obvious, right?

    -Cole
    Dad used to say "The Right Tool For The Job."

    As a former A/E for a major MTB, I can tell you that VMCs always get more attention in sales than HMCs. There are many reasons for this.

    HMC's have better chip flow, usually two (or more) pallets, and (usually) more tools in the ATC.
    HMC's also require a bit more thought in work holding and fixturing, and tend to be a little less accessible to the work area. You're working against gravity most of the time.

    VMC's have easier set up. Easier workholding, and easier accessibility. Many times at a cost of productivity enhancing technology.

    It's also about floor space. And price. VMC's are just hard to beat for small and mid shops.

    Plus, there's the "human dynamics" to take into consideration. It's just a natural thing to have the Spindle in a vertical Z axis coming down to (or going away from) a part.

    The MTB I worked for had gorgeous HMCs and even some budget priced versions. But the show stealer was always the VMCs. Tough to beat for the money. I think the term the office folk use is "cost effective."

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    Often quicker to set up a vertical mill for a short run job,

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    Quote Originally Posted by tnmgcarbide View Post
    just get a badass vertical w/ a 40 taper... a ramboudi,shizouka,bpt series 2, cinci toolmaster,
    gorton mastermil, lagun v3 or 4 whatever... it will bridge the gap that you crave.

    doesn't mean i still don't want a cincinnati #4 or #5 . it's just that my floor would likely need to be
    reinforced, and my 10' door might not be tall enough.

    you can't beat old iron. my 1D toolmaster can run a 1" rougher in steel. my haas vf3 cannot. 2hp vs 20hp ?
    I too have 1D, not completely working, but good enough, there’s a fair bit of gravity stuffed in it, but the drawbar is cranky
    Mark

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    might pour some oil in the top of the drawbar . it might solve the dried grease that made it sticky.

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  23. #38
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    In my shop the vertical gets used 90% of the time, but the horizontal removes 90% of the material.

    Just came in from cross drilling a 1/4" hole then drilled and tapped an intersecting hole for a set screw. Simple little job....who'd want to do that on the horizontal? A pita. Most tasks don't need the horizontals umph and its oh so nice being able to see and have the use of a quill.

    I really like having a horizontal but if I could only have one it would be the vertical

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  25. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mcgyver View Post
    Just came in from cross drilling a 1/4" hole then drilled and tapped an intersecting hole for a set screw. Simple little job....who'd want to do that on the horizontal?
    Given it's drill press work?

    Who'd want to do it on a mill?

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    A vertical mill is more versatile because you can drill and slot using the same machine and the same setup.

    A horizontal system is more powerful and accurate, but you need TWO machines, one for slotting with a flat bed, and a different one with a vertical platform for drilling. And you will have different setups on both machines.

    For most people the convenience, simplicity, compactness and lower cost of the vertical setup outweighs the power and accuracy of horizontal systems.


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