Why are vertical mills more predominant that horizontals? - Page 3
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  1. #41
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    I have not seen the cult classic Bridgeport Series 2 Special mentioned, no kidding they go for alot.
    The table is over 50" long, making you do the stretch when using one. I get to use one of these from time to time, I do like the machine, but a standard one is easier to use.

    I found that image on the web.
    I find a horizontal mill, with a tool and cutter grinder to go with it, very useful, and both machines can be found cheap.
    I pulled this Brown&Sharpe #2 with vertical attachment out of a scrap yard for $500,

    If you have the room, they ad some power to milling for sure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jscpm View Post
    A vertical mill is more versatile because you can drill and slot using the same machine and the same setup.

    A horizontal system is more powerful and accurate, but you need TWO machines, one for slotting with a flat bed, and a different one with a vertical platform for drilling. And you will have different setups on both machines.

    For most people the convenience, simplicity, compactness and lower cost of the vertical setup outweighs the power and accuracy of horizontal systems.
    Of course, you could go for one of these (Deckel FP1 clone)....vertical AND horizontal all in a nice compact size, given that you can set the vertical head on its side and slide it back, you can switch from vertical mode to horizontal mode and keep the work piece trammed and in place on the table without touching it during the switchover.

    img_20191211_172427.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by drcoelho View Post
    Of course, you could go for one of these (Deckel FP1 clone)....vertical AND horizontal all in a nice compact size, given that you can set the vertical head on its side and slide it back, you can switch from vertical mode to horizontal mode and keep the work piece trammed and in place on the table without touching it during the switchover.

    img_20191211_172427.jpg

    While a great machine it is sort of hobby or toolroom level.
    Not to knock it at all but into horizontal cncs it is is different.
    We are mixing machine uses and part runs.
    Hell yes I'd love to have the pictured machine
    Bob

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    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post
    While a great machine it is sort of hobby or toolroom level.
    For a horizontal-vertical combo, an Abene with a quill is pretty hard to beat. That 45* ram is brilliant, no idea why it wasn't widely copied.

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    do the abene mills come with a quill? i know rambaudi do.

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    Default I think EPAIII nailed it...

    When the industrial revolution took off, production of bigger and bigger pieces took off also. But the manufacturing process of the day counted on fixed-function or portable machinery to produce genuinely massive pieces - like a Nordberg crank carrying oil pan.

    Having 1 machine to rough part of the casting, another for another part, then a series of machines to perform finishing work for the same piece led to some real production problems. First - safety - moving these big pieces around [especially back then] is dangerous. Then there is set-up time, the additional manpower requirements, and the massive amount of factory space required.

    The entire old school machine line would be easily replaced by 2 suitably sized horizontal boring mills, and 1 horizontal boring bar - less floor space, less handling, less manpower, and a whole lot less risk.

    Today's manufacturing uses different materials, and compound material construction - maybe an engineered "plastic"
    engine block [molded to a specification] for only 1 or two cylinders, which would be forged steel alloy liners, and composite material individual cylinder heads - all pieces much smaller in size, requiring smaller machinery and easier and safer to handle.

    As the trends are running in manufacturing, only rebuilders will continue using any kind of mill. And, as the parts continue getting smaller and computer technology improves, all of the axis dedicated mills will disappear, being replaced completely by better and more comprehensive 3 axis CNCs.


    Quote Originally Posted by EPAIII View Post
    Well, you may be able to do the same things on each, but they each are somewhat better for certain tasks while not so convenient for others. For instance, the simple idea of using a milling vise could get complicated on a horizontal mill. I mean, it would need a rather large angle plate and two people to hold it in place while a third one bolted it to that angle plate. And slapping a V8 engine block on a vertical mill could not be done easily with a gantry crane.

    I see the horizontals being more suited to larger parts and more pieces between setups. And the verticals are faster to set up for smaller parts with frequent changes in the setups.

    Each can do some jobs faster and more easily and more important, more economically. And in a commercial shop, time is money and money is money.

    On top of that, modern, CNC machines can have multiple spindles at all kinds of angles.

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    Quote Originally Posted by donie View Post
    I have not seen the cult classic Bridgeport Series 2 Special mentioned, no kidding they go for alot.
    The table is over 50" long, making you do the stretch when using one.
    You don't have to mount your vise in the center of the table. There is no stretch when you mount it somewhat to one side regardless of the table's total length.

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    From the standpoint of gravity helping chip evacuation we would have inverted vertical milling machines. Work hanging, spindle underneath. Haha.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Superbowl View Post
    You don't have to mount your vise in the center of the table. There is no stretch when you mount it somewhat to one side regardless of the table's total length.
    It’s a good idea to get out of the habit of always mounting your vice in the middle of the table. It prevents coolant stain plus wear and tear in the same places on the table top and ways. It also allows you to set up another job on the table without having to disturb your vice if a rush job comes along.

    Regards Tyrone.

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    one of the coolest setups i've seen ... a cinci #3 horizontal with a brace
    attached to the overarm supports, sporting a bridgeport 2J head.
    two great tastes , that taste great together ... the Reese's cup of machine tools.

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    The series 2 special I use doesnt have a vice on it, but moving a vice about on one of those long tables to avoid wear, is still going to be a stretch at some point.
    I have used horizontal mills in the past, and found my recently purchased #2 mill has considerably less capacity then the larger sizes, but they really gain weight and power requirements in the next size up.
    Having a tool&cutter grinder along with the horizontal mill is really nice, and economical, both machines are not worth much anymore.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dian View Post
    do the abene mills come with a quill? i know rambaudi do.
    Optionally, yes. PM Member PaulM, Upton Mass has a very nice one that I've seen.

    The angled ram takes a new way of thinking. "Mostly good". But one would have to adapt. Maybe even more so than a Van Norman?

    AFAIK, there were only a very few other makers that did that ... or something like it.

    So I'd have to guess not everyone even WANTED to sess-out the advantages to it and put them to best use?

    The 5205 Avoir (or so sayeth the brochure) USMT "Quartet" I have was an abject failure in the market to the extent they are uber-rare. I'd guess fewer than a hundred ever made, all versions, and maybe not-even that many, counting their end-of-days as a Houdaille-Powermatic product offering.

    At first glance there's a "normal" full horizontal, and a vertical, each conventional.. but.. unlike a B&S Univeral-universal or a Rambaudi and several others, mostly European.

    The Vertical is arranged opposite end of the stout dovetail ram from the area meant for arbor supports for the horizontal spindle. So one MUST rotate the turret one-eighty to place one spindle or the other, never BOTH at the table.

    Tram is not a problem. Great fat tapered shot pin sees to that. But the exercise wants eight largish fasteners loosed, and at least half of a 9-foot diameter swing circle kept clear so as to hand crank the turret around on the worm-drive. Then tighten those eight fasteners.

    BFD for an old hobbyist. Doesn't need done all that often ....and I still have more floorspace the rest of the time.

    Serious time-waster in any "revenue" shop when only one job, one person at a time can use it and it is a PITA to switch modes.

    So TWO mills TWO jobs and TWO operators working at the same time, if need be, made far better economic sense.

    Old brochures and copy online of a bid to USAID show they didn't gain as much US Navy buy-in for ships at sea as expected, and were hooring the "Quartet" to USAID as aid to third-world countries for all-in-one machining capability enhancement.

    Well? 'scuse me?

    About the only thing a POOR country DOES have a'plenty IS "space".. not already occupied by machinery! So that didn't fly, either!

    Not a BAD mill. The vertical head swivels, but has no BP-like nodding knuckle so the #9 B&S is right stiffly positioned, comparable to a Toolmaster.

    Optional vertical heads went clear up to 5 HP and 50 taper so the stout-bugger ram was built for that as well.

    The 48" table was built to stand the 5 HP (and greater, when so optioned) 40 taper or 50 taper horizontal spindle's loading, so has longer support hence shorter actual travel than a BeePee, but that's why is has so very little sag, 60 years on, too.

    I'm au fait with all that. But have not, and will not recommend it to others!

    Like it or never, there would be more downsides than upsides if serious use rather than blue-moon seldom were to be involved.

    Rube Goldberg would love it. Five Gilmer belts, one "A" section, one "Z" section, A wide-ass Reeves VariDrive at around $300 even US Gov GSA surplus, two right-angle gearboxes, "back gear", power downfeed reduction gearbox, and a powered knee with rapids full of gears and clutches with its own "pancake" 3/4 HP motor, each spindle having it's own motor .. plus a big-ass coolant pump that lives (and ROTS) down inside the smelly-belly?

    Belts inventory alone probably paid for a rubber-company executive's mistress's shoe collection! Gears funded a Collitch course in heat-treating?

    I mean.. it is if they had orders from their Board of Directors to see how many leftover mechanical parts they could find someplace to hide from their auditors!



    So even I think they did every damned bit of it the hardest way possible!



    No surprise that "combo" machine tools always and ever lose-out to dedicated ones aimed at doing ONE job, but doing it WELL, and with NO compromises?

    K&T or Large & Shapely come to mind?

    That IS "the general case", worldwide, yah?

    Never have seen a professional meat cutter, let alone a Sushi chef, let alone an eye surgeon working with a Swiss Army knife either, come to think of it.

    Why wuddja when SOG, Gerber, or Leatherman are so much better for eye removal surgery to send-out for heat-treat, opening the heart surgery to drain the lube and stuff?

    ("Big Grin" icon. For the adults in the room..)
    Last edited by thermite; 05-12-2021 at 12:53 PM.

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    And, termite I draw you to this thread because you are a stalker, a troll that has been exposed!
    termite, you sure fucked up attacking working professionals, all the while you have never done any machine work "ever".
    Your Monarch ee forum disaster is a real accomplishment, the machines are more popular then ever, but there is fucking idiot troll "that is you termite" that bullies anyone with newer machines then the old crap you and the other idiots just toy with.
    This is supposed to be a professional forum, there seems to be no explanation for a fake like you.

    Good to see you use the green demon icons again, that is you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by drcoelho View Post
    Of course, you could go for one of these (Deckel FP1 clone)....vertical AND horizontal ...
    Or , get a real one. Note the vertical and horizontal spindles both have quills:



    Keep the wrench maniacs away from precision machinery however.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Mechanola View Post
    From the standpoint of gravity helping chip evacuation we would have inverted vertical milling machines. Work hanging, spindle underneath. Haha.
    I've seen vertical lathes set up this way. Less issues with chips scratching the finish on small single pointed internal bores.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jim rozen View Post
    Or , get a real one. Note the vertical and horizontal spindles both have quills:



    Keep the wrench maniacs away from precision machinery however.

    Since just WHEN did your partiklar brand of maniac have the spare TIME to get your head out of your own TDS afflicted head ... to take up any form of wenching?

    "The World Wonders"

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    Photo was taken when the US was a nice place to live - BTA (before trump asshole).

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    Realizing the full benefits of a Horizontal comes the more that you use it. Sure one can know before getting one the advantages to it yet with patience and focus one can realize the definate advantages.

    Of course you want to have enough work or too much work ideally when you get one. It makes sense and is a motivator to utilize and learn the difference it will make.

    Shops can get one and under tool it easy as it is very expensive to tool up for the kind of work they are good at. Basically it is a chip hoggin highly efficient loading and pallet in waiting ready to go it stays very productive earning its keep. This is just my opinion as shops are different but where I have had them these were some important considerations.

    One big thing. If you do not have the money to fully utilize everything which goes with a Horizontal don’t buy one. Plus too do not think in any way what I just mentioned is even the main motivations across the board because shops and work projects are different.

    They are pretty fly once they are integrated in. You do want to be assured you have more than enough work flow coming through before you buy. It will lessen your backlog of jobs a very fair amount.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jim rozen View Post
    Or , get a real one. Note the vertical and horizontal spindles both have quills:
    A very, very nice second op or hobby shop machine tool.
    Would be great to have one as I do/did like it.
    Not sure how to make money with one now as with my old line of B-ports that pumped out cash like crazy back in time.
    Bob

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    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post
    A very, very nice second op or hobby shop machine tool.
    Would be great to have one as I do/did like it.
    Not sure how to make money with one now as with my old line of B-ports that pumped out cash like crazy back in time.
    Bob
    Go far ENOUGH "back in time" even my d**k still worked.

    Which of you careless lot dropped the keys to the time machine down the toilet?


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