wonder how many shops 'lose' good employees by not posting pay??
Close
Login to Your Account
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 29
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Florida
    Posts
    4,131
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    1620
    Likes (Received)
    1941

    Default wonder how many shops 'lose' good employees by not posting pay??

    OK, I have posted similar question in the past about pay, but now with all the ads saying "pay commensurate with experience" or whatever, I wonder how many skilled people pass those ads up because of that? (regardless of economy because it has been around forever)

    I know personally I won't/don't respond because I don't want to waste my time when they want to pay $15/hr or whatever...

    I am not actively looking for a job, but I always look (if that makes sense)

    If you want to pay me by experience, another common term under salary/pay....

    1) Let's say $.75/ year for first 4 years as I was doing an apprenticeship and learning (not knowing) things
    2) $1.00/year for years 5-10 because I was starting to really "get it" in those years
    3) $1.25/year for 10-20 because I really knew shit then, and could run lots and lots of equipment (b-ports, surface grinders, wedm, radial drills, etc)
    4) $1.50/year for years 20-present. I now (and a little bit before) know how to program multi axis machines (5-6), can run older versions of MCX blindfolded, Haas machine blindfolded, some Fanuc, some Mazak, ability to travel to sites and work, still run b-ports and manual machines, blah blah

    So I come up with around $28/hour... That would even be under what I would take (I currently make roughly $32/hr)

    So.... thoughts?

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Arkansas
    Posts
    1,031
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    391
    Likes (Received)
    374

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1974 View Post
    OK, I have posted similar question in the past about pay, but now with all the ads saying "pay commensurate with experience" or whatever, I wonder how many skilled people pass those ads up because of that? (regardless of economy because it has been around forever)

    I know personally I won't/don't respond because I don't want to waste my time when they want to pay $15/hr or whatever...

    I am not actively looking for a job, but I always look (if that makes sense)

    If you want to pay me by experience, another common term under salary/pay....

    1) Let's say $.75/ year for first 4 years as I was doing an apprenticeship and learning (not knowing) things
    2) $1.00/year for years 5-10 because I was starting to really "get it" in those years
    3) $1.25/year for 10-20 because I really knew shit then, and could run lots and lots of equipment (b-ports, surface grinders, wedm, radial drills, etc)
    4) $1.50/year for years 20-present. I now (and a little bit before) know how to program multi axis machines (5-6), can run older versions of MCX blindfolded, Haas machine blindfolded, some Fanuc, some Mazak, ability to travel to sites and work, still run b-ports and manual machines, blah blah

    So I come up with around $28/hour... That would even be under what I would take (I currently make roughly $32/hr)

    So.... thoughts?
    Most shops simply can't pay. They don't have the revenue... Stuck in the stone ages of paying $10-15 for a machinist is the norm. $20 if you can program. This is exactly why I started my own shop and vowed to never to that to people.

    I don't post ads for work anymore, I hire a head Hunter and let them do all the work.

    Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Florida
    Posts
    4,131
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    1620
    Likes (Received)
    1941

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by as9100d View Post
    Most shops simply can't pay. They don't have the revenue... Stuck in the stone ages of paying $10-15 for a machinist is the norm. $20 if you can program. This is exactly why I started my own shop and vowed to never to that to people.

    I don't post ads for work anymore, I hire a head Hunter and let them do all the work.

    Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk
    For the record, I don't use headhunters either... unless desperate for a job (family to feed and all that)

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Arkansas
    Posts
    1,031
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    391
    Likes (Received)
    374

    Default

    It's tough, I don't like turning people away for work and when you have the 40 year old guy coming in as a 20 year machinist but all they have done is tinker in their garage and the occasional Bridgeport work but you know they need the job, it sucks to say no.

    I use the head Hunter as a buffer.

    Our contract with them is 6 months on an employee and the employee is made aware of the terms and if they pass 6 months we direct hire with a $5 an hour increase.


    Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

  5. Likes hanermo liked this post
  6. #5
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Arkansas
    Posts
    1,031
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    391
    Likes (Received)
    374

    Default

    I'm sure we miss out on great employees. But we also don't have any bad ones.

    Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

  7. #6
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Texas
    Posts
    5,195
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    184
    Likes (Received)
    1664

    Default

    It is not just machine shops. Most, dare I say ALL, employers do not like to post a definite salary/pay rate or even a range. Once they do that, they have given up a bargaining chip.

    Do they lose potential employees? Probably. But getting a suitable worker for the lowest rate is more important to them. If they find themselves in a market where potential employees are scarce, then you may see a bidding war in their ads. They will do it if it is necessary.

    I have had the salary/rate dance with more employers and potential employers than I care to count. The employer is reluctant to state any numbers and you should be reluctant to state any demands as a high number can eliminate you quickly. It can get touchy.

    "What are you making now?"

    "Not enough!" "What are you willing to pay?"

    "But give us some idea?"

    "What did you pay the last guy?"

    "That's confidential."

    Etc.

    No one really wants to state a number first. Been there. Done that. It isn't any fun. And there is no tee shirt for it.

    The two exceptions to this are union and government jobs. In both of those cases, you are not paid for your skills, only for showing up and doing the minimum required. I have also been there, but never liked it much. And again, no tee shirt.

  8. Likes gerritv liked this post
  9. #7
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Pennsylvania
    Posts
    16,613
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    The shops that have permanent signs hanging out front for help wanted, and various add on's down below "Machinist", "Welder", etc.

  10. #8
    Join Date
    Oct 2019
    Country
    NICARAGUA
    Posts
    106
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    41

    Default

    Its the same folks who wont post the price when they advertize something to sell. Pass!

  11. Likes mhajicek liked this post
  12. #9
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    barcelona, spain
    Posts
    2,436
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    549
    Likes (Received)
    1454

    Default

    All sides lose when employers and employees donīt post numbers.

    For a senior position (headhunter, tests, interviews, online psych, etc.) I asked for what the position was generally worth in the industry.
    I got the job, for a bit less direct / yr, but high incentive (worth near the salary).

    Having employed 100+ people..
    (several industries, countries, languages).

    Employers who donīt post salaries are eejits.
    Also, when they donīt flex/negotiate on them.

    I want people who make profits for the biz.
    I donīt mind paying 100k+/yr, given commensurate profits at the other end.

    Endless special secretaries made 60k$/yr,+, with good reason and good net profits for the biz.
    And techs.
    And everyone.

    Decent salaries,
    outstanding bennies and treatment like take-home iphones, ipads, training, flex-time, company cars available for off-hours use with all expenses paid, ...
    big bonuses paid to everyone on anything, absolutely anything, that profits the company,
    and an expectation that *everyone* gets some-to-lot of bonuses (near)every month, often paid monthly,
    creates a culture where employees freely enjoy great company perks, but never abuse them, and produce 2-3-4 times the economic output of typical employees in the sector.

    The employees *want* to stay in on late friday, to finish ongoing stuff, to get better results.
    Everyone wants to help everyone else, because they all see the immediate short-term weekly success as important to their short-term and long term success.

    An employer who mants a cheaper machinist with less salary is incompetent.
    An eejit.
    What they actually need to want is a machinist who makes *more good stuff better*, at *higher marginal profit*, *independent of the cost*.

    No such employers ?
    Honda, Toyota, Kone Cranes (Finland), SpaceX, Tesla, Roomba, Baxter et al robots, Parrot et al drones, Boston Dynamics, museums, Nasa, General Dynamics, Raytheon, Waymo, much more similar in the us.
    Starting salaries typically 100k$/yr, bennies, relocation, options.
    100.000 jobs+ now vacant due to lack of applicants according to them.

    If You as a us machinist donīt have some skills they need, learn them. Somewhat, online, free.
    Prove willing.
    8/10 US tech companies will hire You, if You have learned relevant advanced skills on your own, and help/encourage/pay You to better such skills.

  13. Likes tdmidget, Mike1974, Lastuneste, Panza liked this post
  14. #10
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Flushing/Flint, Michigan
    Posts
    8,364
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    436
    Likes (Received)
    6878

    Default

    I think you have no idea of how many responses you get to such an ad.
    If you have a base simply state it. If you do not want to apply a few hundred other will.
    No good people will get missed as they are not afraid to apply and show what they want.
    Weenies who need some incentive to get off their butts need not apply. Simple deal.
    Do you really expect the job to come looking for you?
    Bob

  15. Likes as9100d liked this post
  16. #11
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Florida
    Posts
    4,131
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    1620
    Likes (Received)
    1941

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post
    I think you have no idea of how many responses you get to such an ad.
    If you have a base simply state it. If you do not want to apply a few hundred other will.
    No good people will get missed as they are not afraid to apply and show what they want.
    Weenies who need some incentive to get off their butts need not apply. Simple deal.
    Do you really expect the job to come looking for you?
    Bob
    You are missing the point. I don't want to do the dance and find out we are not even in the same ballpark, and I am sure you as an employer don't really want to do it either. If you want a $15/hr button pusher with min skills you want to train say so. If you want a $30/hr highly skilled guy that can come in and run shit, say so...

    I can sort of understand not wanting to post a job for big monies because you will likely get a lot of rotten eggs applying, but then again, if you don't, you won't attract the talent you need/want...

  17. #12
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Arkansas
    Posts
    1,031
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    391
    Likes (Received)
    374

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1974 View Post
    You are missing the point. I don't want to do the dance and find out we are not even in the same ballpark, and I am sure you as an employer don't really want to do it either. If you want a $15/hr button pusher with min skills you want to train say so. If you want a $30/hr highly skilled guy that can come in and run shit, say so...

    I can sort of understand not wanting to post a job for big monies because you will likely get a lot of rotten eggs applying, but then again, if you don't, you won't attract the talent you need/want...
    For that pay I'd be looking at ads that say Sr. Machinist or machine shop manager or Sr CNC programmer.



    Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

  18. #13
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Flushing/Flint, Michigan
    Posts
    8,364
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    436
    Likes (Received)
    6878

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1974 View Post
    .... I don't want to do the dance ....
    Volumes spoken and noted.
    I do wonder at what point you saw yourself as a god in the machining world?
    Put your pants on one leg at a time?
    Bob

  19. #14
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Aberdeen, UK
    Posts
    3,726
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    1295
    Likes (Received)
    1468

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by as9100d View Post
    It's tough, I don't like turning people away for work and when you have the 40 year old guy coming in as a 20 year machinist but all they have done is tinker in their garage and the occasional Bridgeport work but you know they need the job, it sucks to say no.
    This is (sort of) the biggest obstacle we always run into when we're hiring.

    The area we are in used to be heavily populated with basic machineshops turning out line pipe and threaded connections and that sort of stuff - feeding the North Sea oil boom.

    So the experienced labour pool around here mainly consists of manual lathe hands. I have next to nothing here that they could actually do, and any work that I could take on for those guys specifically would never make me enough money to pay them the wages they want at their "experience level".

    The end result is that we have a pretty young workforce, with a lot of inexperience but a generally useful contemporary skillset. They need a lot of guidance, but they can do work that does make money, and we pay them well.

    Head hunting has a low success rate because we are in a little town that nobody wants to move to (People don't like to commute here the way you guys do in the US, 10 miles is about as far as most people are willing to drive to work).

    We get suitable people only by paying well. It means we have excellent retention, but getting more people during a growth phase is just incredibly difficult, because the labour pool is just not there. Apprentices and headhunting.

    In my ~12 years here, I have only once come across (and immediately hired) someone around OP's presumed age, claiming to have the same skills and experience as OP. He was full of shit. Lasted barely two months and left under a black cloud. We dodged a bullet though, he had a new job two days later at another local place that did production and I heard through the grapevine that within a week he had wiped the parameters on one of their critical path machines, and after a period of downtime the mothership pulled the plug and moved production elsewhere.

    At which point he called us and asked if he could come back... I don't think he ever worked in a machineshop again after that.

  20. #15
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Florida
    Posts
    4,131
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    1620
    Likes (Received)
    1941

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post
    Volumes spoken and noted.
    I do wonder at what point you saw yourself as a god in the machining world?
    Put your pants on one leg at a time?
    Bob
    Wow bob that is pretty harsh. Why should I work for the same wage as someone with 2-5 years in? Telly you what, I won't. You can think what you want about me, but I know what I am doing and have never disappointed an employer skill wise. Sure, I've had run ins with other employees like everyone else, probably even quit a job or three because I couldn't work with someone... like almost everyone else.

    From as long as I have been on this board I am pretty darned sure there are alot of other guys like me that won't work for peanuts (and shouldn't have to for their skill set) either. But you do you.

    I never said, or somehow implied I was a god. BUT I do know what I am doing, and I know my worth to a shop. If it was all mazaks I would probably pass (as I don't do much conversational) unless they were willing to pay me a decent wage and get me up to speed. If it is a MCX shop, yep I want this money and know I am worth it as I have programmed with it since 2006. If it was NX, I would be far less demanding, and even admit (like I did at last job) I don't have alot of experience with it so....

  21. #16
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Florida
    Posts
    4,131
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    1620
    Likes (Received)
    1941

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by gregormarwick View Post
    This is (sort of) the biggest obstacle we always run into when we're hiring.

    The area we are in used to be heavily populated with basic machineshops turning out line pipe and threaded connections and that sort of stuff - feeding the North Sea oil boom.

    So the experienced labour pool around here mainly consists of manual lathe hands. I have next to nothing here that they could actually do, and any work that I could take on for those guys specifically would never make me enough money to pay them the wages they want at their "experience level".

    The end result is that we have a pretty young workforce, with a lot of inexperience but a generally useful contemporary skillset. They need a lot of guidance, but they can do work that does make money, and we pay them well.

    Head hunting has a low success rate because we are in a little town that nobody wants to move to (People don't like to commute here the way you guys do in the US, 10 miles is about as far as most people are willing to drive to work).

    We get suitable people only by paying well. It means we have excellent retention, but getting more people during a growth phase is just incredibly difficult, because the labour pool is just not there. Apprentices and headhunting.

    In my ~12 years here, I have only once come across (and immediately hired) someone around OP's presumed age, claiming to have the same skills and experience as OP. He was full of shit. Lasted barely two months and left under a black cloud. We dodged a bullet though, he had a new job two days later at another local place that did production and I heard through the grapevine that within a week he had wiped the parameters on one of their critical path machines, and after a period of downtime the mothership pulled the plug and moved production elsewhere.

    At which point he called us and asked if he could come back... I don't think he ever worked in a machineshop again after that.
    I've ran into those too, that ain't me. I may not know what you know, I do know machining. If you were hiring *just* for oil field type work, I would probably not apply anyways as I have not done any of that. If you were a regular job shop doing different things day in and out and needing new jobs programmed everyday and such. Yep I'm going to apply, probably, if you did indeed pay excellent as you say.

    Matter of fact, when I was getting into cnc, we bought one at the shop and put out an ad. This dickhead comes in with this GREAT resume (years of progamming experience, mold, tool & die work, etc). I say dickhead because he had that attitude I am better than all of you. Well first week in he scales a print (yes scales a print!), like the first thing they tell you to never do in your apprenticeship? Well he fucks up a part of a big mold, buutt the customer says it will work by modifying this and that etc. OK. Next week or two, he leaves the vise handle on the vise, in our brand new cnc mill and it rapids tto Y home, vise handle had crept out some, cracked the plexiglass, bent the door. Then he had the balls to say we (the shop, owner) weren't treating him with the respect he deserved LMFAO.

  22. #17
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    New York
    Posts
    10,235
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    2657

    Default

    1) pay with benefits and 150% pay overtime can be a lot different than just pay..
    just saying making $28./hr and no benefits or overtime might make $57,000/yr. different place make $23./hr with benefits like 6% 401k match and 150% overtime might make over $90/000/yr
    .
    2) at age 50 i sent out 30 resumes and only got 3 replies. they can figure out your experience level reading resume. normally place wanting to hire <$19./hr not even going to interview a experienced person they figure not going to be happy and quit soon..
    .
    3) at interview last question often write down on paper what pay i expect. i wrote $12. - $20./hr cause i wanted job. if i put down $28./hr they would not have called me back offering job. got hired $20./hr and getting yearly raises and extra pay raise after 5 years there. after 7 years pay average of 7 years is $70,000/yr with benefits and overtime (cnc operator)
    .
    4) i have seen places give yearly bonus rather than pay raise. or increase or decrease 401k match and adjust hourly pay. for example lower 401k match 3% but give pay raise of 3% so total is same not keeping up with inflation but some might feel better if hourly pay rate goes up even if actual total pay does not. with less 150% overtime pay many place give increased hourly pay raise. so hourly pay rate goes up even though less 150% overtime total end or year pay can go down a lot
    .
    got to take published pay rates or industry average pay with skepticism . in China person can get $3./hr with free benefits like free tools, meals, housing transportation, clothing, free medical, etc and with low cost of living (low taxes) be making more saved money than somebody making $28/hr in a no overtime or benefits in a high cost of living country. just saying its a bit of a game with what some dont understand total cost of benefits and actual end of year pay and savings. and especially not understanding taxes and loan interest
    .
    most places only pay enough to slow down people leaving at too fast a rate. for example pay more hourly pay to keep critical people a few more years even when planning on going bankrupt in a few years. or place hires new people at above average place that has no future or everybody knows will go bankrupt in a few years. pay always what it takes to get and keep people and how desperate a company is.
    .
    i have seen 500 people laid off and 100 new jobs offered and everybody has to apply to new 100 jobs and most offered less pay. i have seen 50 people apply to one job before.

  23. #18
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Houston
    Posts
    5,871
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    583
    Likes (Received)
    2679

    Default

    I've posted this in the past here but I'll say it again - the Prez of our company tells me it is very hard to hire good people for the shop. Welders are the worst, but machinists and other trades, too. It has nothing to do with pay.

    Why? A guy comes in with 25 years experience and a great resume. He has another 15 years left in him. Perfect. He gets an offer at a decent wage and accepts it - then fails the drug test.

    So...let's turn this around - how many 'good' employees lose shops because they show up doped up?

  24. Likes as9100d liked this post
  25. #19
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    New York
    Posts
    10,235
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    2657

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by GregSY View Post
    I've posted this in the past here but I'll say it again - the Prez of our company tells me it is very hard to hire good people for the shop. Welders are the worst, but machinists and other trades, too. It has nothing to do with pay.

    Why? A guy comes in with 25 years experience and a great resume. He has another 15 years left in him. Perfect. He gets an offer at a decent wage and accepts it - then fails the drug test.

    So...let's turn this around - how many 'good' employees lose shops because they show up doped up?
    .
    i have seen places do many interviews then offered 3 people job at $19./hr and all 3 people say no thanks got a job at different place. no wonder they cannot find people.
    .
    people failing drug test and people with mental stability problems like paranoid tendencies or getting into fights is always a problem all companies face. some people need their medicine and when they dont take it are not mentally stable. i am talking bipolar or other mental health terms..... like famous pop star shaving her hair off bald. obviously got a problem

  26. #20
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Republic of Arizonia
    Posts
    1,619
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    478

    Default

    The race to the bottom continues...

    Economics of the whole picture, usually will screw up the wage scale...

    That considers gov intervention of markets, trade, min wage etc..

    When there is no more room to personally gain anything.

    What keeps a person at that place of employment?


Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •