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  1. #421
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    Here is 16ga discarding sabots made from grey ones with other 16ga slugs..
    20 ga factory sabot on left for comparison.



    Here is picture of 12ga wads showing good and bad support.



    Here are 2 sabots on the right with super heavy tungsten slug. It is 1100gr,
    but tungsten costs ten times what lead costs.



    Here is a sabot home defense or close range defense load setup using our
    sabot. It has five flattened 45cal balls in it. Flattened into a fat disc weighing
    145gr each. You'd star crimp it or use card over them and roll crimp. Like
    having a bunch of supersize flat buckshot, only super big.



    Here is comparison picture of the 58cal slugs used in our 12ga sabots, with the
    puny slugs used in many other sabots. And we've moved 5500 of the sabots.
    Deer season is coming fast. Maybe time to get loads tested/sighted in is now.



    Some more figures. The 24hr Campfire forums is first one, with our 12ga FH thread,
    to get over half million thread views.The HighRoad second.
    TheFiringLine third. AR fourth...Ed

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    We have moved few thousand sabots.More here.
    Here is picture of an 8ga wad with tube slug in it, we made.



    A pallet load of our 585HE cases has arrived in the US
    and will be here in little while. And should be another pallet
    of them this fall. Here is picture of our 585
    with the solid turned CEB bullets in them.



    Here is some helpful, simple math to help figure out the kinetic energy
    of your loads, just by having bullet weight and speed.
    Just put these multipliers which are used for each speed, on a list
    and multiply by the bullet weight in grains. Fast and easy.Ed

    Speed..Multiplier
    1500------5
    1600------5.7
    1700------6.42
    1800------7.2
    1900------8
    2000------9
    2100------9.8
    2200------10.75
    2300------11.75
    2400------12.8
    2500------13.9
    2600------15
    2700------16.2
    2800------17.4
    2900------18.7
    3000------20

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    Would anyone else like to see a scale included in the pics? My mind refuses to accept that these things are as big as described.

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    Here is picture of current 58cal slug options that
    you can get molds for from Lyman,
    Just make sure they are .574" to .577" diameter.




    A barrel of 585HE cases..Ed



    Made by Bertram and I tested them to max loads and cases hardly expanded,
    650gr over 3000 fps. The same draws used by him to make high pressure
    Cheytac cases, and to finish mine just uses belted header and cases left
    straight and trimmed longer.He makes tens of thousands Cheytac steady all
    the time now and can make ours steady also when needed.....Ed

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    I had to look up Cheytac as I had never heard that before...wow two mile shooting. Nice cases I am sure these will keep your shoulder sore for a few weeks. Thanks for keeping us informed and have a great summer.

    Charles

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    One of our sabot testers with tight barrel, Abolt, with wide lands in
    the barrel, who couldn't do any good at all with our sabot and Alliant Steel
    and one type of slug, had to go to IMR 4759.
    It would twist up the sabot petals. Terrible accuracy.

    My guns have NEF/Sav size barrels and worked fine with Steel as well as 4759.
    Petals open perfect. The Abolt barrel is about .005" smaller than NEF/Sav and
    the lands over twice as wide as the NEF. And has real narrow grooves.
    Guys with Nefs say sabots open fine like ours here.

    He went to different Minie slug and our slow powder loads using
    IMR 4759 powder up to 78-79 gr and finally got down to 2.5" group, I told him
    go to max which is about 80-82 in 3" case.That barrel is like a lot of
    EU made barrels and many are replacement or add on barrels in many slug guns,
    and that is reason why it is so hard to get accuracy across the board in
    sabot shooting in all guns--Takes a lot of work.. Another tester with NEF 12ga using
    Alliant Steel with sabots got good groups like we did here. I tell guys if
    problems occur go to 4759.

    What was happening to sabot petals in the barrel, with the extra tight fit and
    wide lands were petals twisting.. The wide petals were not cutting into the base of
    sabot like in NEF/Sav210 barrels. The twist effect of rifling was on the surface
    of petals, twisting them. It was not getting good hold on the sabot body. The
    4759 starting slower allowed the sabot to get its spin started up to speed
    with the wide land rifling and narrow grooves..It is just the opposite of
    way NEF/Sav 12ga barrels are done. with narrow lands which impress into
    the sabot base the way it is supposed to work..

    I think after this experimenting run I feel that a lot of accuracy problems
    across the spectrum of barrels are due to barrel differences, and not just
    the differences factory slugs and/or reloading components.

    Here is pic of bag of our 585 cases with plain head if some need them for
    wildcating.We have quite a few. Fifteen have 585HE cases now. 585 gun
    building is accelerating. We can get folks going with 100 cases, dies, and soon
    a barrel; and shipping, for 750...Ed


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    Here is picture of our 12ga sabots with the marks that the barrel lands made, marked with
    black marker. The one with narrow mark is Savage barrel and one with wide mark is
    an Abolt barrel. And the ones fired in Savage and NEFs with the narrow lands the marks
    impressed into the plastic getting good bite and not twisting the petals. The one from abolt
    he used slower powder for easier start and it open petals ok, without twisting petals like
    the faster powder did for him.


    ..
    Next is picture showing top edge of sabots. Our sabot on left you roll crimp down over
    the inside of it a little . We have lots of them yet.
    The other factory sabot they crimp real short and sharp
    180 degree crimp down on top of it.



    We see a use for modified 585 application in Indiana deer hunting. Mainly shotgun only, but
    they also allow rifles with over 35cal pistol calibers; and any over 35cal rifle with a case
    1.8" or shorter, usually short wildcats. So we have the the 585 HI... The I is for Indiana.
    Here is picture of it next to the kinda little 500 S&W. 585 HI holds over 80 gr powder.

    Next picture is a Magtech chambered for it. Gets 440gr Minie over 2,100 fps.
    The .585"- .587" Minies of 440gr, 540gr, etc work in it, and they're good deer slugs
    We got other guns with it going into; bolt guns, like in the last picture,
    single shots and checking couple lever actions.
    Might work great in MNs many guys like....Ed






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    In above post we compare the top thickness of sabots
    .Here is comparison of the thickness of the sides of two types of
    brass 12ga cases, the RMC turned case and the thinner
    Magtech drawn case. Easy to see you can't size with same dies
    and sometimes you have to use different wads..



    In posts earler in the thread you saw variety of wad columns with
    12ga sabots and here is picture of my favorite wads to go between
    seal and sabot. The white felt ones from BPI. They compress down
    evenly on firing, easy to load, decent price,



    You've seen the work on our 585HE posted. Folks ask what case
    I made first ones from and how. Here is a sketch showing the steps
    I used to make the first 585HE from long basic straight Nyati brass.
    The start of the belt step I put on the case where it is thick I do it
    in my case spinner lathe I made. Then case is lubed and run into
    couple swaging/sizing dies and comes out formed into our belted,
    straight sided, 585HE case...... It is really faster getting a big
    run of cases made in a factory.




    Shot a 12ga sabot load w/440 gr Minie bullet in smoothbore Rossi
    in 3" case, Going about 1700... .. 4" group 3 shots at 30 yds.
    Gun works fine, shoots nice. Got extra weight in the butt.
    The Minie I used is a semi-round nose. If I had the ones of same length
    with blunt nose, slightly heavier the group size would be smaller as
    they'd be more nose heavy, be like Foster slugs..Ed

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    Here is picture of the group improvement a guy had shooting our
    sabots in a real tight barrel. Actually an undersize barrel compared
    to Savage and Nef barrels. Had a wide open group with shotgun
    powder but made it much smaller using much more
    of the slower 4759.



    There is a guy now in Canada with our sabots for guys there and
    other countries, and as well, he can ship back to here. He plans
    on supplying the .58cal slugs also for the sabots if guys can't get
    them or don't cast their own.......
    Contact is- jeff.a.white at gmail.com
    If things work out for him he plans on getting a bunch
    our 585 cases imported for sales there

    I got some factory 8ga kiln loads, 3 oz lead at 1800 in the long
    barrel falling block. Got box of 25 to see how they compared to
    the loads we set up.Our favorite is 900gr at 2300. in plastic case.



    Here is picture of section 585HE case showing 4 pyrodex 54cal,
    60gr equivalent pellets, with a 440 gr Minie bullet.
    Actual powder wt is about 185gr....Goes about 2600.
    Nice cloud of smoke and really bellers out of the slow twist barrel
    barrel we set up for minies.....Top pellet tapered a little and fit
    inside thr hollwbase of the bullet....Ed


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    3oz of lead...you are going to know you shot that one the next day. Thanks for keeping us updated, I forwarded your information to a friend of mine, but I dont know if he contacted you, he has some interest. I will check with him later and give him a boost if he hasnt.

    Charles

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    Another use for 58cal Minie Bullets would be to setup a 24ga FH.
    Minie bullets cheap to cast and buy. We use the .575-.577" in our
    12ga sabot, and the .585-.587 in my 585HE. And you could use
    577 NE bullets also.

    For those in shotgun only areas there is a way. You can get 2.5"
    Magtech brass cases, but also you can set up a 3" chamber and use
    577NE 3" brass. Grafs shows some under 4 bucks each. Cheaper
    than getting them made. And if you set up chamber with shotgun style
    forcing cone you could shoot shorter Magtech as well as plastic cases.
    Reason to use 577 cases, they are stronger solid head, last forever,
    and can be run higher pressures and still last forever.
    You can get barrels, 58cal at Green Mtn I think. .We got some also.

    AND the first batch 585 barrels from McGowen has got here, more
    will be built.They are the regular 1 to 20 twist barrels, and we have 14
    that are profiled and polished, and 3 others that are straight blanks,
    1 to 20 twist. And 6 slow twist barrel blanks for guys doing mainly
    Minie bullet guns, and bunch smoothbore blanks...Pictures soon.

    Here are couple pictures of a 585HE gun a guy is doing with nice
    walnut stock. Gun has extra bedding lug and accra-glassed.
    It is an Enfield and has single stack magazine.




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    Here is picture of 24ga FH in the Mossberg bolt gun. On a
    Mossy 390 frame, .585" heavy barrel, same as 24ga size.
    Chamber is set up 3" with shotgun style forcing cone,
    so it can use 2.5" plastic cases and 2.5" Magtech brass
    cases with slugs or shot and for 3" cases we use 577NE
    3" brass. Really make a hairy 24ga using the 440gr to
    540 gr Minie bullets at 21-2400. If you take 540 Minie bullet
    mould and leave out base pin you'd have a 650gr that
    would do. All these bullets and slugs as well as jacketed and
    turned 577/585 bullets work in 24ga as well as my 585HE.
    And the smaller Minies work in our 12ga sabots. I keep
    saying 58cal is where it is at, and there are more bullet and
    slug choices in the .585 size, easy to find, than any other
    caliber over 458. And Minies are like 40 cents each and
    cheaper if you cast your own.




    Here is picture .585" barrels from McGowen, with other barrels.
    Most of the McGowens profiled and some straight blanks.
    Others we have are the slow twist and smooth blanks...
    In back some of the cases and die sets.



    Here is picture of an Enfield and a BBK in Hogue recoil
    reducing stocks. These stocks are the rubber coated ones with
    the easy to grip, nice pistol grip.Has McGowen 26 inch barrels,
    1 to 20 twist, barrels are heavy profile and taper
    to .980 inch at the muzzle. Setting up 4 more on Enfields
    through the winter. Ed


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    The 50 BMG case can be trimmed to "just seat" in a 16 guage chamber for an extra heavy Slug Gun. I have used only Black powder and Pyrodex under a 1/2" wad and round balls though.

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    Some guys in 12ga like to use the Magtech brass cases
    but the cases being brass the sides are thinner than
    plastic, and that makes loose fit in 12ga chambers.
    And case expand a lot and are harder to resize,
    But I found that .750 hollowbase 10ga slug fits
    those cases and still chambers ok. Not a sloppy fit.

    So If you have a 12ga smooth barrel with full length
    backbore job, of .850" bore or bigger you could use
    the Magtech brass and ,850" size 10ga hollowbase slugs.

    Brett in MN used the a BPI AQ slugs in his full length
    backbored 12ga and got fair accuracy as he said the wads
    under slugs expanded a lot for a decent fit.
    The 10ga slug shown in the 2.5 inch Magtech is 800 gr,
    and .850" diameter. These cases will take magnum
    pressure so you can get good speed, for what this short
    case can hold.

    It is too bad they don't make 3" and 3.5" versions.
    These 2.5" cases are easier to find and much less than
    others, so if needing brass ones you can rig up guns
    to work with them. To build a new barreled gun in actual
    12ga size, IE .729" bore, you'd make chamber to
    minimum specs so cases don't over expand.
    In the picture are 2 10ga slugs on right, like in the case,
    and 2 12ga jacketed slugs and one 12ga lead slug left.ED






    Here is the ytube URL again for our guy
    shooting 585HE in his NEF----By mid summer we plan on a
    pickup truck load of more 585HE cases coming in.

    [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HypaUdwQGAc]www.youtube
    .
    Last edited by hubel458; 02-22-2014 at 03:50 PM.

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    Default 12 Guage From Hell

    Quote Originally Posted by hubel458 View Post
    jkilroy- No it must be a shotgun style case,
    same base as 12 ga to be called a 12 gauge...
    IE, a straight case. They have 2.5, 2.75,
    3.0, 3.5, and 3.75 inch 12 gauge cases
    and chambers. We have our barrels stamped
    12 GA 3 3/4. And they fire all lengths of 12 ga cases, and most 12 gauges now are made
    stamped with their length.Everybody is shooting all lengths of brass, plastic, paper,aluminum,
    12 ga stuff with regular slugs for smooth bore, rifled barrel slugs, high speed saboted loads, and they are all exempted.If it can fire any
    12ga case same or shorter, it's exempt..Ed.
    You say that your case is 3.75 inches long, but the case in the picture is much longer that that. Or is it? I have known a few people who have drilled out the BMG primer pocket and they have screwed home made Boxer primer seats into where the BMG primers had been. Are you also replacing the BMG primer seats?

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    The cases we made from bmg brass are between 3.750 and 3.850" max
    We just called them 3 3/4.

    Some cases we used with bmg primers and others we drilled and put in
    threaded bushing for 12ga primers. I' out of those cases so i tell guys
    to get 3.5" brass from RMC with shotgun primer pockets.

    Here is good simple system with big hollowbase slugs to stop
    the skirts from deforming, or wads getting pushed into
    the hollow base. I found that dense dow foam works
    good, I was using glue gun, but the dense foam is easier, cut
    plugs out of foam sheet and force into the base. Make it a
    tight fit, use spot of glue inside, glue that is for foam....
    Trim off the foam flush..In picture is 10 ga 900gr slug
    with foam pressed into the base..



    How we get good 24ga plastic seals with protusion on
    top that fits up inside 58cal Minie base, same bore as 24ga
    and our 585HE. I get the 24ga seal by cutting apart the BPI
    24ga Brush wad, getting two seals out of each.Works great
    in plastic case giving a shorter column than other seals and
    wads, so we can get in enough of our 4759 for good speed.
    The 24ga idea is getting nicer all the time with
    the variety of cheap 58cal slugs, and good 3" brass cases,
    drawn cases, we didn't have to wait to get made.
    And all kind of guns we can use, bolt 395 Mossbergs, single
    shots of all kinds, Autos,, pumps. bolt action Savage,
    even 1887 Win and Greener MKIII, bolt action JC Higgins. .



    Here is picture Khan auto we setting up 24ga FH, it is 3.5"
    model, has a 12ga barrel to change with. Being 3.5" it
    feeds/ejects through lengthened port 3" brass 24ga cases we
    made from 577NE brass. We rework back of the bolt for
    slightly longer stroke.Ed


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    Here is picture of 24ga cases, loads; and some slugs and seals.
    Brass cases are 3", plastic cases are 2.5". Brass 3" can be loaded
    to match 577NE power.



    Here is of 24ga in an 87 Win, just test gun of mine. Uses same barrels
    as our 585HE, This one has slow twist for Minie bullets.Our guys
    have got supply of regular and slow twist barrels.



    Here is picture of the first 585HE done and shooting in Australia.
    It is owned by the poster, 'tankhunter' on the AR forums.
    Built by his smith who has a reamer.
    Guys there can get cases from Bertram, and there will soon be three
    reamers there. There is a company there now making 585 barrels,
    Allan and Grant Swan. in Redbank, Queensland.....Ed


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    What would be in Australia that would need such a large caliber? Other than just for fun of course...Nice looking number one.

    Charles

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    HUGE groundhogs I suppose, they're a pest to your lawn...
    Forgot one: KANGARUGERS , they carry guns and shoot back , real nasty animals!
    Nice guns though!
    Max

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    Quote Originally Posted by CBlair View Post
    What would be in Australia that would need such a large caliber? Other than just for fun of course...Nice looking number one.

    Charles
    I would suspect tanks in one form or another, as it belongs to 'tankhunter'.

    And yes, nice #1. Pleased to see it.

    Now more, please.

    Zero.


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