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Thread: 12 GA From Hell

  1. #41
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    Been testing IMR-4759. No ignition problems.
    Ignition is instant with regular primers.
    Don't need Blue Dot starter powder,
    like we had to do with RE-7 and RE-15
    for good reliable ignition.We did 4759 in
    plastic cases first.600 gr slug. I got a
    nice working roll crimper attachment
    for drill press for crimping slugs.
    That sure makes it easy, and perfect crimp.
    In 2 & 3/4 plastic cases with loaded
    length of about 2.35 inches got to 80gr.
    That's max as you must leave room for
    about 3/8 wads or cushion wad. Some cases
    may only hold 75 grains max due to
    the case construction.Powder is less dense
    than RE-15. 1650 plus fps in 24 inch barrel.
    In 3 inch cases, loaded length about 2.6
    inches, got to 95 grs max, 1800 plus fps.
    Some cases may only hold 90 gr due to
    case construction. Cushion is
    a half inch felt wad or equivalent.
    Both lengths start down and go up
    if pressures allow. 60 gr short case,70 long.
    This powder being faster than RE-15 you must
    have a little cushion in the way of felt wads
    or plastic cushion wads.With slower RE-15
    a card wad works ok as powder started slower.
    The powder burning must build pressure
    to open crimp without a to high pressure spike.
    This bulky powder with reliable ignition
    is a winner.Then we tested 3" Rocky Mtn brass
    cases, Got max load of 105 gr, and 1900 plus
    fps. In few weeks will get the 4759 and RE-15
    loads pressure tested.Ed

  2. #42
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    Now these loads are for only heavy barreled
    steel action guns like the NEF Ultra 12,
    or like my Savage with heavy barrel added.
    I am getting heavy barrel on the 87 and
    it will be long.There are some turn bolt
    locking lug pumpguns that would work
    with heavy barrels.There is a large
    12ga Tula bolt action, but it's not imported.
    This week if weather allows(no rain)
    I will be firing first test loads of my
    700HE long belted case.Ed.

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    Found an O/U that would handle the 4759 3"
    loads. It is the Zoli Z-Sport. Expensive,
    all alloy steel construction, tested to
    about 100k. That's not a missprint.Their
    site shows testing at the Italian proof house
    of 8000 bar.That's 7-8 times regular shotgun
    working loads.Pic of action below. It handling that extreme pressure, means that other quality
    O/U like Ruger may handle 4759 loads.Ed


  4. #44
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    It handling that extreme pressure, means that other quality
    O/U like Ruger would handle 4759 loads.


    I think that is an unwarranted extrapolation.

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    GGaskill--I been told Rugers O?U are tested higher
    than most other shotguns. They've been used for
    making double rifles. My top 4759 load by the way
    in NEF in same cases as REM buckhammers
    didn't expand the bases of the case as much as
    the buckhammers did.So the 4759 loads are
    not extreme presssure. The load Greg tested getting 1640 fps with 600 gr was tested
    max of 11,800 psi at same facility we wwill have
    our loads test at.Our loads are about 200 fps faster so pressures aren'y going to be
    astrnomical.Ed

  6. #46
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    The factory Rem buckhammer slugs are
    about 1500 fps and slug and its permanent sabot
    is 630 gr. Our slug is 600gr.Now a factory load that is that heavy and fast is higher pressure
    than 1 oz(437gr) foster at a 1200fps standard
    loading, and all makes of guns fire the buckhammer slugs.So the same REM SP case, as
    used with our loads and factory buckhammers,
    and ours expands same or less we have perhaps
    found a winner that guys reloading can do.
    And get over 4000 ft lbs by reloading.Ed

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    Hey Ed, I feel like I know you, after reading your information on all the other various sites your on. I'm not a machinist or a reloader, but I have friends who are. I really liked what you're doing with the 12 Gauge From Hell. It looks like it could go from being a very long range slug gun for deer,to smacking Cape Buffalo with authority in Africa. Some loads are looking like elephant too. This is a great thing for people like me, who are in slug gun only country for deer (Ohio), and have to pass up some shots, because they are just too far out of range. I was really interested in the NEF version, as that may only take doing a barrel to make happen. I currently have a 10 gauge black powder ball rifle, made from an NEF 10 gauge. It has a 30 1/2" barrel (including chamber). The barrel was made by Ed Rayl, and then was mounted to the action by Ben Hubbard of Hubbard's Outdoor Products. I shoot it using 200 grains Pyrodex and 209 shotgun primers. I am currently in process of having a 3 gauge (1 5/32") in-line made by my buddy who is a machinist. It is a smooth bore Cape Gun with a 33 1/2" barrel and 209 ignition. It's not too far away from firing. I have no need for it, but Had to have it. I've read too many Sam Baker stories I guess. I also have an 8 gauge underhammer rifle coming any time from Washington State.

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    I sent you an E Mail the other day, and was asking whether you still had the 12GFH loaded cases for $10.00 each, as I would like to have a couple.

  9. #49
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    I have a few cases to spare.Email me
    [email protected]
    and we will get you two.With Nef
    as original with the loads we have
    figured out you can get good power with
    plastic or Rocky Mtn brass cases.Ed

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    I had a couple more questions. I believe you said somewhere, that your cases ended up around 3.8". For my machinist buddy, how much more room is neededed up front, to allow for the bullet nose to stick out? I believe there is something in there also, called a forcing cone. I have heard that term anyway. Is this the portion of the chamber that has some sort of a taper to center the projectile into the grooves of the barrel? My main slug gun that I use, is a wood stocked Marlin 512 with 2 3/4" Lightfield Hybrid slugs. Since this gun is basically a bolt action shotgun instead of a beefed rifle like the Savage you use, would it be out of the question to make a barrel for it, or rechamber a stock barrel for it. This barrel looks like it has the bolt slide built right into it. The only reason I even mention this gun, is because I'm used to it, and it already has the lines of a big game rifle. Of course, it would have to be weighted and all that. I figure it's a no go, but it wouldn't hurt to ask.

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    Marlin bolt action shotgun can't be used for our
    hopped up long case The bolt only locks at rear bolt handle base.My Savage locks with three lugs
    in the reciever front, like big bolt action
    50BMG.My Savage isn't even a beefed up Savage rifle but a bigger bolt action than their rifles.
    As for putting in a chamber our case is 3.85"--
    and all smith has to do for slugs that
    protrude, is have .250 extra and start forcing
    cone there.A regular 12ga spec forcing cone will work.
    Now if your Marlin handles heavy magnum
    goose 2 to 2 1/4 oz of shot factory loads
    in plastic, it will handle the 4759 load of
    80 - 90 grains, that I mention in the thread. Start at 80 and see how they extract.
    Use cards and wads to take up space like regular
    shotgun loads.Ed.

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    Thanks for the info. I figured that would be the case for the 512. The Marlin 512 came out about the same time as the Savage 210, and is a dedicated slug gun with a rifled barrel and 3" chamber. On another site, you spoke of a 2 bore or 30mm (I believe 30mm is quite a bit smaller than 2 bore). The case was 5" long. I take it that this was to be fired from the shoulder. Have you ever seen the gun that fires it? A man named Alan Myers built a huge 2 bore single shot shotgun with a 6" chamber, and according to the Field and Stream article it was in, was just about finished with a 1 bore. I believe it was "only" going to shoot the 2 bore load in it's monster case, as he said a full load was not humanly possible to shoot from the shoulder. I believe it would hold around 10 oz of shot. I guess he decided to build it, only because it had never been done. I never did see it or hear about it again.

  13. #53
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    WE've made a 2bore from steel 27mm surplus
    cases, 5 inches long, by cutting cases off at shoulder.The bore is 1.225 and is the same as surplus 30mm barrels. I have 2 barrels and
    plan to build action. Plan on reaming
    out rifling so it is a smooth bore.Ed

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    Very Cool! I hope you'll post it somewhere when it's completed.

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    Ed, I E Mailed you a couple gun pictures. I put the money order in the mail yesterday for the cases.

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    Hot damnn- Test Results of 4 plastic cases.
    Rem high base 3" case, with 600 gr
    Dixie hardened slug. Roll crimped with
    crimper in drill press. All 4 loaded with
    90 gr of 4759. We have a winner.
    Average velocity of 4 -- 1938 fps
    Average pressure of 4 -- 14, 575 psi.
    tested with transducer test ing setup,
    in 30 inch barrel,In my 24" NEF I got 1800+.
    Cases fell out of his test chamber like they did out of
    my NEF.And with some cases I can get in 95gr,
    that I figured with my math would
    have 15k psi.So my math and developement is
    OK.And 4800 ft lbs, thats neat with plastic.
    Tom says this load will do in any gun that handles
    the 2 oz factory magnum goose loads
    that test about 13,600 to 14,000.And 4759
    will give slower time to peak pressure, thus
    will be easier on cases than magnum goose loads
    or the hot factory Buckhamer slug loads
    I fired, that expanded cases as much or more
    than our 4759 loads.Ed

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    Some research. Anyone with a Mauser converted
    to 12ga shotgun can fire our 4759 loads.
    One was the GEHA, other REMO. The locking lug for bolt is the rear safety lug and if you wanted an extra lug do an Ed on the bolt
    handle base to make contact between bolt handle and bolt handle recess.They are not long enough
    for our full length case, but came with 2 3/4"
    chamber and magazine.Were 2 shot large ring
    converted military mausers.Studying this gun lead me to the idea that a fancy 12ga with 3" chamber could be made by the same thing that Germans did to the Mauser to make GEHA. Just use
    a S&L, Colt Sauer, etc, with rear locking lugs.
    Grind out inside diameter of action from rear reciever forward so 12ga case will feed, Rear of bolt will still center ok as lugs and metal
    are there. The silver solder combination guide extension to support 12ga case on the left side
    of bolt, and put extractor on right side.
    Like a Sako or whatever.Face off the recess on front off bolt flat, Put in 12ga barrel with chamfers to clear extractor.A 788 Rem
    may work, at least with a 2.75" case.
    For repeater action, Open mag
    well to hold a single stack of 1 or 2
    12ga cases.Fancy gunwrighters badmouthed
    the GEHA, but geese hunters just loved them,
    as they handled heavy loads fine. Ed.

  18. #58
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    Here is picture of top part of the
    first scale-up model, next to smaller
    Wickliffe. It has 12GA FH round in feed
    trough. It is aluminum just for a model.
    It will handle 12GA FH, 700HE, 700NE, 600NE,
    etc. Bottom of block is flat to set on
    mill table to do the machining.Next machining
    will be the hole and slot down through the
    action for breech block and hammer to
    slide up and down in.Its taken awhile to
    get some tooling.I had none when we set up
    vertical mill, and have to get more.The
    action model also will be narrowed up when
    finished, and contoured to look as good
    as the Wickcliffe.Ed.


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    Tested the Wickcliffe with 12ga FH case
    in a temperary chamber, just primer, to see if
    hammer with beefed up spring would fire
    bmg primers.I scalloped out the back
    of the action so 12ga cases would feed
    into the action and temp chamber
    They fired ok. But the extra stiff spring
    makes it hard to cock. We will have to work
    on that.The original Wickcliffe
    action that we want to scale up is tall
    enough so that when breech block is
    lowered the block clears the bottom
    a 12ga rim when cases slide out of chamber.
    So in the scale up we need to just add a
    a little width for wider breech block,
    and the bigger barrel thread, and keep the
    sides thick for strength.Ed

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    Fired couple 3.5" cases with 90gr
    4759 and 460 grains of buckshot,
    14 number 1 buckshot.Fired in nef,
    pattern huge due to rifling, even with
    shotcup. They were going 2000 fps plus,
    and went through 1/8 steel on end of
    stand. Ignition perfect, extracted easy.
    In smoothbore be a real hairy load.
    With three 3.5" plastic cases with
    100gr 4759, 600gr slug. Used .135 card wad,
    a 1/2" and 1/4" felt wads. 1900+ fps
    in 24" NEF barrel, same low pressure as
    the 3" cases we pressure tested. I have NEF
    chamber lengthened for our longer
    brass case. A nice long barrel we'd
    have 2050 plus.Ed


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