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Alternative sear release.

Bobnotthecat

Cast Iron
Joined
Jul 5, 2009
Location
S.W. PA
In the ever pursuance of quick lock times and the lightest of trigger pull, why isn't there some sort of electronic, pneumatic, hydraulic or gas activated sear release sold commercially? The very old technology of locks are very dangerous, unreliable and very inefficient! Am I missing something here? Bench rest shooters as well as off hand hunters and snipers could benefit from modern mechanical/electronic/pneumatic developments. I envision large sear engagements with very short stroke heavy striker/hammer springs, safely used with shortest lock times without the usual detriments.

I am only wondering what the pros and cons are to this concept and want you all to express your opinions as applied to our practical world!

Also, am I too old to know of current developments? If so please enlighten me sirs.

Bob.... not the cat.
 
In the ever pursuance of quick lock times and the lightest of trigger pull, why isn't there some sort of electronic, pneumatic, hydraulic or gas activated sear release sold commercially? The very old technology of locks are very dangerous, unreliable and very inefficient! Am I missing something here? Bench rest shooters as well as off hand hunters and snipers could benefit from modern mechanical/electronic/pneumatic developments. I envision large sear engagements with very short stroke heavy striker/hammer springs, safely used with shortest lock times without the usual detriments.

I am only wondering what the pros and cons are to this concept and want you all to express your opinions as applied to our practical world!

Also, am I too old to know of current developments? If so please enlighten me sirs.

Bob.... not the cat.
Widen your scope beyond individual weapons to crew-served and cannon.

Dunno if it is only a hundred and fifty years old. Or more, but electrical direct ignition is an old concept.

Some automatic weapons of modern times have used it in "smaller" conformations as well. Not just electrically driven impact. Electrically initiated primers where a pulse of current does the detonation. The 3.5" rocket launcher, AKA "Bazooka", fired off a squeeze-magneto. No batteries required. But still. Fine wires to the rocket where a worry.

Is it a gain, even if practical at all - once a power source has to be included - for handguns or shoulder-fired?

No. Not yet.

Because the lock-time is already short enough. The mechanical reliability is still far, far above that of electronics as well. Over a hundred years, no dead battery YET, many firearms.

Have one not so good? Sounds to me like a "personal problem".

My eldest is over 90 years old. Its double "set" trigger lockwork is as good as it was 1923.

The far greater factor is that our own eyes, hands, brain are not very fast.

We have to be able to asses what we sense, knowing intuitively that it is already old information, then predict where a moving target WILL be when our also-slow muscles have moved the firearm to engage where it will "meet the projectile".

IOW - it is all about prediction ability. See "deflection shooting" air combat.

Hence we've been able to hit moving targets with slow rocks, medium spears, bows and arrows, modest-velocity early muskets, shotguns, and rifles, or the fastest of modern projectiles.

Every one of those by simply by being "comfortable" enough to do expert work with the weapon we HAVE.

We adapt.

The weapon is the minor player. Not the major player.

Still a frustration?

Shared.

By the texpayers behind military forces with outrageous sums spent to MISS!

An estimated nine hundred rounds were left out of a depot supply of TWENTY THOUSAND .45-Boxer-Henry cartridges, battle of Mission Station, Roark's Drift, Natal, South Africa (movie Zulu basis). There were between 1,500 and "maybe" as many as 3,500 Zulu casualties for all that storm of lead. Most died from a bayonet thrust at that.

Some 18,000 to 25,000 rounds were fired for each single hit, War Two.

Vietnam onward? Who could possibly count them? Most re-arrange rocks and dirt.

The answer is not faster lock time. It is better target identification and acquisition.

And dynamic projectiles.

Not just "smart" seeker-missiles that lock-on, cling-to, and hunt down their evading targets.

Rounds for battle rifles as can do the same.

Someday.

Soon, too.

R&D has been ongoing for a while already.
 
Back in the '80's, an electric/electronic trigger mechanism was marketed for the Remington bolt action. But it didn't seem to get widespread use. Don't know why. But I would not want to put my life on the line with the potential for a dead battery. It's bad enough when the battery dies in a red dot sight.
 
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Back in the '80's, an electric/electronic trigger mechanism was marketed for the Remington bolt action. But it didn't seem to get widespread use. Don't know why. But I would not want to put my life on the line with the potential for a dead battery.

Sort of thing extreme benchrest / experimenters would not worry over as to dead battery.

No personal eye deer what the rules permit for actual competition.

I've done enough work with solenoids & such to not expect any "magic", vs an expert "squeeze", off a good sear.

Thermal electric pulse might have a no-flinch edge, but the cannon rounds as used that were special goods and nothing under 20 mm - or at the very least .50 BMG.
It has been a long time since I last saw that, though. Most things are possible, the money is there.
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In the ever pursuance of quick lock times and the lightest of trigger pull, why isn't there some sort of electronic, pneumatic, hydraulic or gas activated sear release sold commercially? The very old technology of locks are very dangerous, unreliable and very inefficient! Am I missing something here? Bench rest shooters as well as off hand hunters and snipers could benefit from modern mechanical/electronic/pneumatic developments. I envision large sear engagements with very short stroke heavy striker/hammer springs, safely used with shortest lock times without the usual detriments.

I am only wondering what the pros and cons are to this concept and want you all to express your opinions as applied to our practical world!

Also, am I too old to know of current developments? If so please enlighten me sirs.

Bob.... not the cat.


Electronic sear releases or triggers have been around since world war 1. They were used in some crew served machine guns, aircraft machine guns and tank machine guns. They were used in this application as a remote way to fire the weapon without having to have a hand on the trigger.



As far as an advantage in lock time or better weapon manipulation/accuracy?? While things could always improve, we are at a point of pretty diminishing returns in the hands of a trained/skilled marksman like a bullseye, benchrest or practical shooter. Through the use of lightened hammers, firing pins, triggers, etc, lock time is very fast in most precision firearms.

The pistol I built below(well thermite would say I didn't build it but rather assembled it as an armorer because you know you can just slap these pistols together and I don't make my own parts) has just over a 20oz trigger pull, and a lock time such that it will put 5 rounds in the same ragged hole at 25 yds off hand. If lock times weren't fast, that would be near impossible. And BTW, that pistol already has 40,000 rnds through it since february, so reliability of the trigger, parts, lock mechanism is pretty good I would say.

Alternative sear releases just aren't very practical from a size/weight standpoint in most applications.



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I second that mechanical sears are fairly reliable. Moreover, unless you switch to an electric priming system, like the mentioned unsuccessful Remington's one, you will be facing with the very same real issue potentially affecting ultimate accuracy: the transfer of mechanical energy from the "striker" to the primer to obtain reliable ignition.
In many rifles with a high magnification scope mounted on them, you can observe the vibrations by looking through the scope while dry-firing.
However, if you consider the amplitude of those vibrations, they pale compared to the commotion generated by the primer going off and by the powder burning and generating a sharp pressure wave.
Speaking about electronic sears, they're relatively common in competition airguns, mostly in 10m International air pistols and air rifles. I know of a few very good shooters regretting the switching to electronics, due to the different response of the trigger and the absence of the "micro-creep" in the second stage of the electric switch, compared to a very good mechanical sear.

And, about running out of juice, I remember a dozen years ago a very good shooter at the Field Target Nationals in Connecticut who, I believe, was shooting a Daystate rifle. Unfortunately, he forgot home the charger, and the NiCd custom, embedded battery left him with a dead rifle in the middle of the first day of competitions.
More recently Daystate, Morini, and many others appear to have learned the lesson and switched to accessible/removable batteries of non-exotic formats. But older otherwise fine competition airguns are now inoperable, unless heavily modified because their custom battery is dead or the obsolete battery format is nowhere to be found (replacing AgOx or HgOx batteries with alkaline don't always work for both voltage and current delivered).

Paolo
 
...because their custom battery is dead or the obsolete battery format is nowhere to be found (replacing AgOx or HgOx batteries with alkaline don't always work for both voltage and current delivered).

LOL! Cuts both ways. Radioear's Model 82 hearing aid was hastily given a case facelift and early-days transistor chassis to replace the peanut sized vacuum tubes that needed three batteries - refreshed daily and weekly.

The Model 820 missed out to MAICO by - ISTR it was two weeks - being the first-ever transistorized commercial product to hit the consumer market.

A year out an elderly lady came into her dealership to complain there was something wrong with her new Model 820 hearing aid because it never needed batteries like her Model 82 had needed!

She had run 12 months and was still carrying-on off its single massive (for hearing aids, anyway..) P.R. Mallory Mercury cell! No time to make dies for a smaller stainless steel case, Sam had just stuffed a bigger battery into the now-vacant space!
 
The BATFE keeps a close eye on "other than mechanical" triggers because they can potentially be easily converted illegally to fully automatic operation. You would need to demonstrate some form of effective, non-cheatable, disconnector or face being shut down.


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The BATFE keeps a close eye on "other than mechanical" triggers because they can potentially be easily converted illegally to fully automatic operation. You would need to demonstrate some form of effective, non-cheatable, disconnector or face being shut down.


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LOL! Given oscillators in our WiFi and cell goodies and CPU clocks in our Pee Cees are running up in the GIGA Herz ranges, a new meaning to "automatic weapon" could easily challenge some madman, yazz!

M61 Vucan is electrically-fired. 6000 rounds/minute typical. 1,000 RPM per-each of six barrels.

War Two aircraft-mounted .50 BMG were hitting 1,200 RPM, per each ONE barrel.

Couldn't SUSTAIN that, of course. Didn't need to do. Ammo was GONE all-too-soon as it was.

Only "Hollywood" has the technology to fire an infinite number of rounds without need of any visible means of re-supply or even reload.

A Breda twin "Fast Forty", A Phalanx, a chaingun? Not a one of these has that sort of stamina!

They all have to eat.
 
For target rifles I remember seeing electronic triggers in the 70's but they never caught on. Currently some of the very high end olympic air pistols have electronic triggers (morini and steyr). Still from what I have seen they are not a tremendous improvement over mechanical triggers in the same guns. One thing that comes to mind too is that well made guns last a long time- 50-100 years maybe. Electronics generally do not and the parts go obsolete.
 
For target rifles I remember seeing electronic triggers in the 70's but they never caught on. Currently some of the very high end olympic air pistols have electronic triggers (morini and steyr). Still from what I have seen they are not a tremendous improvement over mechanical triggers in the same guns. One thing that comes to mind too is that well made guns last a long time- 50-100 years maybe. Electronics generally do not and the parts go obsolete.

Well rounds fired probably matter a great deal more than years in the gun cabinet, but still.. shotguns have similar sears and the record - AFAIK - still b'long a lone Remington 1100 as fired an astonishing number of rounds, not only no repairs, but also not even any CLEANING of any kind - some 24,000 rounds.

No compelling reason for me to hang batteries on MY one. Can't afford that kind of ammo spend, anyway!

:)
 
Well rounds fired probably matter a great deal more than years in the gun cabinet

Very true I am sure but even in this case the electronics bring nothing to the table. High end smallbore target rifles with mechanical triggers commonly go hundreds of thousands of rounds fairly trouble free.
 








 
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