ATF Firearm Marking Requirments - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by DemonDog View Post
    ...handguns fall under different laws for the ATF.
    WRONG Cite where pistols have different marking requirements. You won't be able to because the marking requirements are universal for ALL firearms, as long as you're a licensed manufacturer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mram10 View Post
    Who is posting state laws? This thread is a simple atf requirement thread. No one cares if you mark your guns or not. This is to show what markings are required for resale.
    An ounce of prevention...

    Also, as a non-licensee, I don't care what licensed manufacturers' requirements are. How many licensees are here? You? DemonDog?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mram10 View Post
    “Resale” is the key word in the atf’s eyes. If you are building guns for resale, markings are required. If they are for personal use, that is totally different.
    WRONG "Licensed" is the key word. If you are federally licensed THEN you can manufacture for resale. THEN you follow the marking requirements. And THEN you can engage in sales.

    You say you don't care about personal usage requirements, but you continue to inject personal use into your replies...adding to the confusion.

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    I agree Licensed is key, but you have to be licensed to make guns for resale.... back to my point, they must be marked and I listed the requirements.
    Argue all you want, but my OP simply listed refs on markings because people argued depth and ways to mark.

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    As a licensed manufacturer, I can tell you that none of the FFLs I know of will buy or transfer a homemade firearm from a hobbyist that isn't marked. We don't need an unmarked firearm on our books at the next ATF inspection. There is no reason a home builder can't mark a firearm, whether required or not.

    Jeff

    Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by weaselfire View Post
    As a licensed manufacturer, I can tell you that none of the FFLs I know of will buy or transfer a homemade firearm from a hobbyist that isn't marked. We don't need an unmarked firearm on our books at the next ATF inspection. There is no reason a home builder can't mark a firearm, whether required or not.

    Jeff

    Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk
    Wouldn't blame an FFL for not getting involved with a homemade firearm, marked or not. A LOT of liability there!

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    Quote Originally Posted by weaselfire View Post
    As a licensed manufacturer, I can tell you that none of the FFLs I know of will buy or transfer a homemade firearm from a hobbyist that isn't marked. We don't need an unmarked firearm on our books at the next ATF inspection. There is no reason a home builder can't mark a firearm, whether required or not.

    Jeff

    Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk
    As a former licensed Class 2 manufacturer, I can tell you that's because it has been the law since 1968. If it was made after 1968 it would be illegal to transfer. Prior to 1968, some manufacturers didn't number certain guns. For instance, I have had several Remington 572's that were not serialized that were transferred to me from licensed dealers...legally.

    There is one reason I can't mark any of my creations...I don't want to. I choose to not mark them and since there are no legal requirements for me to do so, it's a moot point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MIBill View Post
    MARKING REQUIREMENTS – FIREARMS (27 CFR 478.92)
    Sec. 478.92 How must licensed manufacturers and licensed importers identify firearms,
    armor piercing ammunition?

    (a) (1) (D) In the case of a domestically made firearm, the city and State
    (or recognized abbreviation thereof) where you as the manufacturer
    maintain your place of business; and
    (E) In the case of an imported firearm, the name of the country in which
    it was manufactured and the city and State (or recognized abbreviation
    thereof) where you as the importer maintain your place of business. For
    additional requirements relating to imported firearms, see Customs
    regulations at 19 CFR part 134.
    So no requirement for gauge/caliber then? And country of origin is only required for imports?

    Seems if OP is going to make a comprehensive post to outline marking requirements he should make an ACCURATE post outlining those requirements.

    Or better yet, quit taking legal advice from non-lawyers on internet forums. The requirements are spelled out clearly in the handbook. Furthermore, the requirements are subject to change, if they do, the ATF will update the handbook. How many here think the OP is going to come back and update this thread if changes are made in the future?

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    CB, I’m going to talk slowly so you might understand. What does the first paragraph of my OP say? I realize you might have to get someone to read it to you, but it says it pertains (that means applies) to manufacturers. That is someone who makes these for resale.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mram10 View Post
    CB, I’m going to talk slowly so you might understand. What does the first paragraph of my OP say? I realize you might have to get someone to read it to you, but it says it pertains (that means applies) to manufacturers. That is someone who makes these for resale.
    Maybe you're the one that should read more slowly or have your mom read it to you. I realize that may take a while because the handbook is pretty long, but it really is necessary to get your information from a reliable source like the handbook.

    Your point that this information is for manufacturers changes nothing about the point I'm making. You posted importers marking requirements; importers are not manufccturing these for resale. Licensed manufacturers manufacturing these for resale are doing so IN THE USA. They do NOT have to mark the country of origin on a firearm. And IIRC, and IAW MI Bill's earlier response to me, there is no requirement for domestic manufacturers to mark caliber. I have many AR lowers marked "Caliber: Multi" and a few with no caliber marking at all. How does one mark the caliber on a firearm (the receiver is the firearm) if the caliber of that firearm isn't yet known? Your post over-generalizes the complexity of the issue, the points in your post are not laid out in a clear, concise manner, and it ultimately just adds to the confusion of what is required and not required.

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    CB, you’re on my ignore list so I can’t read your posts. If you’re writing to apologize, I accept.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MIBill View Post
    The long and the short of it is this... The first three sentences of henrya's post above could not POSSIBLY be more CORRECT!!!

    What I can do in Michigan could well put you in jail in other states. CHECK YOUR STATES REQUIREMENTS!!! However, as far as the federal laws go, there is ZERO requirement for a private citizen making a pistol, rifle, OR shotgun to mark anything. A call, letter or email to ATF will confirm this. Making an NFA item absolutely requires markings and PRIOR approval along with the application fee and tax stamp!!!

    Please also see: Does an individual need a license to make a firearm for personal use? | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives

    AND: Am I Required to Apply a Serial Number to a Homemade Firearm?

    Contact information to your local ATF field office can be found at: ATF Field Divisions | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives

    When a private citizen makes a pistol, rifle, OR shotgun it MUST be for for personal use! Federal law forbids making with INTENT TO "TRANSFER". That mean you can not make with the intent to give it away, sell trade, gift...

    If you make something and 5 years later become board with it, there is nothing in the law that would prohibit transfer through sale, gift, trade...

    As a matter of course I mark EVERYTHING I make according to the provisions of 27 CFR § 478.92

    Please see: https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/...-sec478-92.xml
    This is true. You can make anything short of NFA items without any markings or serial numbers or anything, as long as it's for personal use. Doesn't matter if it's a pistol or long gun. You can also sell it as long as you didn't make it for the purpose of selling it. Clear as mud, but that's the way it is federally.

    As long as you made it for personal use, you can make it without any markings. You can also sell it without any markings.

    State laws are obviously a whole different matter.

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    imram, send this to the MFGs as this doesn't apply to us. We ain't manufacturers. When I was an FFL, I marked nothing except the chambering on a barrel that I chambered, nothing else.

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    Butch,
    My OP says it applies to manufacturers. If it doesn’t apply to you, feel free to ignore it.

    Manufacturing
    ATF’s long-standing position is that any activities that result in the making of firearms for sale or distribution, to include installing parts in or on firearm frames and receivers, and processes that primarily enhance a firearm’s durability, constitute firearms manufacturing that may require a manufacturer’s license. In contrast, some activities are not firearms manufacturing processes, and do not require a manufacturer’s license. For example, ATF Ruling 2009-1 (approved January 12, 2009) explained that performing a cosmetic process or activity, such as camouflaging or engraving, that primarily adds to or changes the appearance or decoration of a firearm is not manufacturing. Likewise, ATF Ruling 2009-2 (approved January 12, 2009) stated that installing “drop-in” replacement parts in or on existing, fully assembled firearms does not result in any alteration to the original firearms. Persons engaged in the business of these activities that do not constitute firearms manufacturing need only obtain a dealer’s license.
    Although installing parts in or on firearms, and applying special coatings and treatments to firearms are manufacturing activities, the definition of “manufacturer” in 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(10) and 27 CFR 478.11 also requires that a person be “engaged in the business” before the manufacturer’s license requirement of section 923(a) applies. Thus, a person who manufactures a firearm will require a manufacturer’s license if he/she devotes time, attention, and labor to such manufacture as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the sale or distribution of the firearms
    manufactured. If the person is performing such services only for a customer on firearms provided by that customer, and is not selling or distributing the firearms manufactured, the person would be a “dealer” as defined by 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(11)(B) and 27 CFR 478.11, requiring a dealer’s license, assuming the person is “engaged in the business” as defined in 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(21)(D) and 27 CFR 478.11 (i.e., “gunsmithing”).

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    Quote Originally Posted by gappmast View Post
    I had always heard they wanted the numbers to be stamped because it left a layer of compressed metal under the surface. In case the numbers were ground off the compressed metal could be used to identify the firearm. They say engraving is OK it doesn't seem like that would leave a compressed layer of metal. If engraving is OK then etching should be.

    Is it legal to change the caliber? Here in California long guns are registered like hand guns. Say I buy a Remington 700 in 30-06 and later rebarrel it to a 270
    Probably. Being Cali gun laws, your guess is as good as mine, but...
    When I registered my AR's last year under the latest round of the "Bullet Button Assault Weapons" roundup, I listed them all at whatever caliber they really were, and they all got bounced (the first time) for (among other things) not being listed as "Cal: multi". Which I would take to indicate that changing them later is OK, since they don't know what caliber they were to start with. Even the Springfield Saint, which is stamped .223, as I recall.

    You now know as much as I do, and have about as much chance of correctly figuring your way through Cali gun laws as you did 10 minutes ago.
    Enjoy,
    Brian

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mram10 View Post
    CB, you’re on my ignore list so I can’t read your posts. If you’re writing to apologize, I accept.
    Lol... apologize for what? I didn't realize I was talking to a snowflake that could have his feelings so damaged by somebody pointing out the inaccuracies and shortcomings of his information that he would need an apology.

    I really shouldn't even be dignifying your ridiculous crybaby tantrum with a response but here it goes.

    I am sorry that, by pointing out the inaccuracies of your post, I hurt your feelings. I am sorry that I didn't stroke your hair, call you sweety like your mom would have, and bear the facts gently with complete consideration of how it may impact your feelings to be told you're not right. I'm also sorry for all of the other people that will interact with you in the future; they are not yet aware that you're very delicate and must be told you're incorrect in a manner that let's you down easy. It is inevitable that your life will be filled with a string of hurt feelings by those types; I'm just apologizing on behalf of them in advance so hopefully it's not as shocking to you that people won't treat you like your mother did.

    Btw, how old are you? Just so I can stay on top of the concerns that need to be considered when dealing with folks of specific generations.

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  22. #35
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    I think imram is building post count. The other thread about hand tight being fine on tightening a barrel and welding a recoil lug.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Butch Lambert View Post
    I think imram is building post count. The other thread about hand tight being fine on tightening a barrel and welding a recoil lug.
    You must be very bored. Judging by many of your comments, post count doesn’t make you a valuable contributor.
    Just curious, do you build rifles? How many have you built? What types?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mram10 View Post
    You must be very bored. Judging by many of your comments, post count doesn’t make you a valuable contributor.
    Just curious, do you build rifles? How many have you built? What types?
    This should be fun...


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    I have engraved the few lowers that I have created. I don't know if it's necessary legally or not. Being in Texas it probably doesn't matter, but I always envisioned the pain that could be created if I was stopped by an officer of the law who maybe didn't know the law 100% and I had a gun with no numbers. I'm not suggesting that you couldn't explain it to them and get another officer involved that knew the laws better, but it seems like a hassle that is easily avoided by engraving some basic info on the side. It also may be beneficial in the event one was stolen, however 0.003" goes away pretty quickly with any kind of a abrasive. It's also worth noting that although this is the way it is now the BATFE and others seem to readjust their "determinations" or whatever frequently.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mram10 View Post
    You must be very bored. Judging by many of your comments, post count doesn’t make you a valuable contributor.
    Just curious, do you build rifles? How many have you built? What types?
    First off imram, it appears that in my 17 years on the forum I have 1700 post or 100 per year. You have been on a little over a year and have 250 post with nothing of value in them. Don't you understand why all these folks disagree with you. You might start trying to comprehend what the folks are telling you.
    As far as rifles built and barrels chambered. I really do not keep a list, but I do have about 100 in my 2 gunsafes and have chambered at least a couple hundred. Not nearly as many as a lot of folks. So your point happens to be?
    A couple of my projects when building some of my rifles.
    My CZ452 trigger project



    Imram, this is my barrel tuner that is now sold by Grizzly

    Snap caps for a 505 gibbs double rifle

    Machining my redwood-carbon fiber BR stock


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    imran, here is a couple more:
    One of my windflags that I sold to the USAF in the Middle East

    I have a L46 Sako that did not have a trigger, bolt release,or bolt release housing. Had to make them

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