Barrel for a Webley service air rifle

gwilson · Oct 8, 2012

I have a Webley "service" air rifle patented about 1927. Mine its 117 cal.,but they were made so you could interchange barrels to .22.

I'd like to make a .22 barrel for it. What twist should a .22 air rifle barrel have? Would a .22 barrel liner work as a liner for an air rifle barrel ? I know it won't shoot accurately unless the twist is correct. Any experienced advice??

Would a liner or old barrel made for .22 SHORT work? Thanks for any advice.

gwilson · Oct 8, 2012

I think Crosman had a special .20 cal. barrel so you HAD to buy their special pellets.

RWO · Oct 8, 2012

Lothar Walther makes airgun barrels in all the known calibers. The don't seem to list the twist. See http://www.lothar-walther.com/454.php

RWO

GGaskill · Oct 8, 2012

Actually, it was Benjamin that made the .20 cal air rifle. Supposed to hit harder than the .177 but higher velocity than a .22.

gwilson · Oct 8, 2012

Actually,now that I have had time to recall,it was the Sheridan Blue Streak and Silver Streak that made the 20 cal. rifles,in their model C. And they had a 1 in 12" twist. I have now found out that a Webley 22 cal. air pistol had a 1 in 15" twist.

Is there any reason that a 1 in 15" twist would not also work in a rifle barrel?

Unless someone knows,I need to look up the twist in 22 cal. barrel liners,or in blank barrels.

edit: I see that 1 in 16" 22 cal. liners are available. Is there any reason that a 1 in 16" twist would not shoot about as well as a 1 in 15" twist(as found in Webley Senior pistol barrels?). That's pretty close.

Webley also offered a 25 cal. barrel for the service rifle. That is likely out of the question. I DID have a 25 cal. "Apache" air rifle that didn't work. If I can find it,I suppose I could use its barrel to make a liner from,to sleeve out to the full diameter of the Webley. I don't see much use for it,though,as only round lead balls could be shot,and the velocity would suffer a lot. O.K. for short range rat shooting,but I only do target. I just like the idea of having a full set for the Webley.

I seem to have answered all my questions,unless there is a reason the 1 in 16" would not be suitable as the 1 in 15"twist for 22.

gwilson · Oct 8, 2012

You would think that,Thermite,but the twist for a 22 short is 24". That seems to be going in the opposite direction from the desired pellet rifle twist. The Sheridan(the quickest twist I found) is only 1 in 12".

speerchucker30x3 · Oct 8, 2012

The nutty freind I tricked into buying my Thobens has a couple of those Webleys and has installed barrels on them. Its fairly simple to do. He cut the groove for the key way on his lathe by drilling a hole at the start and end and then locked the barrel in a 3 jaw with the muzzle on center. He then made a tool bit the width of the groove and used the apron to broach the slot and soft soldered in the key and filed in the lock pin slot. (For want of a mill). The breach is fairly simple too. Its just a wide parting cut with a 45 on the 2nd shoulder. I'm not to up on BB guns but I think the barrels are just common high lead 1117. Which is just your garden variety stuff that you find in high pressure hand rails and thermally stress relieved pig fences. Most of the 22 cal BB guns I've owned have been 1-14 to 1-16 twist. I should think you could just buy a Winchester 64 barrel from Numrich and work from that if the OD is large enough. I'm not sure on the inside bore dimensions. I don't have a 22 caliber BB gun to check right now. 22RF barrels might be to loose.

gwilson · Oct 8, 2012

Thanks,Spearchucker. Was hoping you'd chime in. I want to make a 22 cal. barrel. I'm now thinking a 1:16 twist 22 barrel or a liner(to insert into a barrel about 1/2" in did.,might be o.k.. I have some liners already in the shop. Will check their twist.

Thermite,I meant that the TWIST rate was going away(becoming a longer twist),not that it was turning in the wrong direction. Not clear wording on my part.

After I started this thread,I finally found my old "Encyclopedia of air guns" and got more info.

speerchucker30x3 · Oct 8, 2012

gwilson said:
Thanks,Spearchucker. Was hoping you'd chime in. I want to make a 22 cal. barrel. I'm now thinking a 1:16 twist 22 barrel or a liner(to insert into a barrel about 1/2" in did.,might be o.k.. I have some liners already in the shop. Will check their twist.

Thermite,I meant that the TWIST rate was going away(becoming a longer twist),not that it was turning in the wrong direction. Not clear wording on my part.

After I started this thread,I finally found my old "Encyclopedia of air guns" and got more info.

Just thinking out loud here. Numrich has some barrels for the 77 in the clip fed model. If memory serves they may be large enough OD and the only bastardization on them would be the front and read sight dovetails. New, but old manufacture barrels might be better than new manufacture as a lot of the new stuff is sulfureized to make it free machining and does not polish all that well. Those old barrels are all leaded steel and you can lap the snot out of it with rouge or JB compound and polish it up slick and shiny as a dime-store-cowboy. BB guns like shiny barrels.

Part Number: 223290

http://www.gunpartscorp.com/catalog/Products.aspx?catid=7730

speerchucker30x3 · Oct 8, 2012

Better nix the 22RF barrel idea. From what I can glean online, 22 caliber BB gun barrels all hover around .216. It seams that Lothar Walther makes them though and sells them through their Georgia distributor. If you wanted to use a 22 RF barrel I think you would have to contact Corbin Mfg and get them to make you some custom dies and make your own BBs. That does not sound fun or cheap. Real men don't shoot BB guns anyway. LOL

http://www.lothar-walther.com/457.php

[url]http://www.corbins.com/pellets.htm

[/URL]

Ron of Va · Oct 9, 2012

The twist rate is a relationship to the length of the projectile.

Example: The “SSS” bullets (Super Subsonic) are 60 grains, and are very long projectiles and shoot very well in a 1-9 twist. Whereas the typical 22lr 40 grain projectiles are matched to a 1-16 twist.

I would contact these guys, they should very helpful.
http://www.mac1airgun.com/

http://www.airgunshop.net/

CalG · Oct 9, 2012

air gun barrels are NOT .22RF barrels

Ron of Va said:
The twist rate is a relationship to the length of the projectile.

Example: The “SSS” bullets (Super Subsonic) are 60 grains, and are very long projectiles and shoot very well in a 1-9 twist. Whereas the typical 22lr 40 grain projectiles are matched to a 1-16 twist.

/QUOTE]

As mentioned, the bores are different.If you wish to shoot commercial pellets (suggested!) then get an air gun barrel.

Regarding twist rate: "typical air guns have twists of 18 inch +/-. they can be quite accurate with much slower rates. the effective twist rate of the new "Smooth Twist" barrels from Sweden's FX airgun co., is around 1 in 40 inch. The drag stabilized diabolo shaped pellet has a lot to do with it.

Regarding consistent velocity: You might be surprised. Some spring powered air guns shoot in the high 700fps with extreme spreads of only a few fps. Though supersonic velocities from air guns are possible, best accuracy seems co come between 600 and 900 fps. Again, the pellets shape comes in on this. Some shooters are achieving sub min of arc groups at 100 yds with "pop guns" ;-)

If you want more information than you would ever need to know, there are dedicate air gun sites. Their classified pages could be used to post a WTB small add.

http://www.network54.com/Forum/79537/

http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA...86e00aab1d315b0eef976d4044d03ba1&action=forum

gwilson · Oct 9, 2012

Agreed,CalG. My most accurate air rifle is a 1950's Walther target rifle that is about 600 FPS. It came with a ONE HOLE target from the factory. 10 pellets went through that 1 hole,and the hole is the diameter of 1 pellet.

On the other hand,my 1000 FPS air rifles shoot much less accurately,making about a 1/2" group at 10 yards.

I don't know why I like air guns, but I do. Used to shoot them indoors sometimes. I also have many regular firearms,up to 45-70.

I will not attempt to use a regular 22 cal barrel,Spearchucker. This is the advice I was looking for. Not so easy finding air gun barrels,though. The Webley has a long barrel,and most barrels cannabilized from other guns would be too short to make an authentic 22 barrel for the Webley.

ronan · Oct 11, 2012

The rifling on .22 rimfire barrels is too deep , the air can rush past the pellet and you get poor accuracy and power. Webley made those rifles sometimes in a cased set with three barrels a .177 , .22 and .25. I believe the walther barrels are not as good as they used to be , bsa barrels are very good and are available from john knibbs in birmingham england , the barrels are also choked at the muzzle and accuracy is supposed to be excellent.

http://www.airgunspares.com/store/department/72/BARRELS-&-BLANKS/

CalG · Oct 11, 2012

The biggest problem with air gun barrels is that they seem to "collect".

I started with one, to see if it would replace the Stevens heavy barrel rifle for "domestic duties", then I got another one just like it in .17 cal. I'm up to 9 of the dang things. Pumpers, springers, pre-charged....Oh! My! they are enjoyable

gwilson · Oct 12, 2012

The spring air types are the most consistently accurate guns,unless things have changed. CO2 guns are frequently used in matches,though. After a first several shots,they shoot very consistently until the bottle starts to get low.

My favorite is my Webley service air rifle,bizarre as it looks. I also have a 117 and a 22 cal. 1907 patent date pair of Birmington air rifles that are also excellent shooters. My Walther is the most accurate.My most accurate pistol is a Walther,too. It is the model that James Bond is holding in the well known poster. Guess the photographers couldn't tell the difference between it and a real fire arm!! Has a real hair trigger. VERY accurate for short range shooting,as intended. I have a Webley Senior,but my best Webley is a Premier with adjustable trigger pull. Of Senior quality,but a better gun. Had a Mk I,w/adj. trigger,but gave it to a friend.

Peter Colman · Oct 12, 2012

Years ago I made a batch of these for Webley .22 Service rifles using 3/8" O.D. .22RF tubes fitted into seamless thickwall steel tube and then profile turned and fitted with a frontsite and keyway as described.
I do not know of the twist as the tubes were supplied by my customer but they did work OK.
I would add that .25 BBLs were also made and that the pellets are available here in the UK.

ronan · Oct 12, 2012

I have to say that there is great interest in any of the birmingham made webley products, they were high quality guns at reasonable prices, i have a .22 webley revolver that i love and won't be parted with. Its a pity the name is now applied to so-so quality stuff made in turkey.

MikeAa · Oct 12, 2012

FWIW, I have an old post world war "Apache" type air gun in great shape that was 25 cal. bb. I took a decent old 22 rifle barrel and turned it to fit, the results where terrible, it doesn't shoot for crap. I can't tell you off hand the twist or anything but I understand 22 air gun barrels are much tighter than a long rifle, perhaps in the rifling as mentioned earlier.

gwilson · Oct 15, 2012

MikeAa,I also have an old .25 cal. Apache sir rifle,if it is still around here somewhere. I think the .25 would not shoot with a very flat trajectory,though,as it would be powered by the same relatively small cylinder that the Webley shoots the smaller calibers with. Webley got away with that smaller cylinder,which shotes just as hard as the old BSA's(with much larger cylinders),because Webleys have automotive style piston rings in their piston,which seal better than the usual leather or rubber types.

Barrel for a Webley service air rifle

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Cast Iron

Titanium

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Aluminum

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Cast Iron

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Stainless

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Aluminum

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