What's new
What's new

Chamber Reaming Fluid / Flush system

ls2005019227

Plastic
Joined
Jun 16, 2006
Location
Eunice, MO
I am in the process of getting set up with a new lathe (13x40 Kent) and the tools necessary to re-barrel and accurize bolt actions (primarily rem700). I have two questions along the same lines: Can the coolant pump system that is currently on my lathe be used for a "through the Barrel" flush system? and, I was told by a VERY REPUTABLE reamer manufacturer to try Automatic Transmission fluid for coolant/cutting fluid while chamber reaming. If ATF can be used for reaming, can/would it be okay to use it for other cutting operations? Is ATF too thick to properly flow through the system? The idea sounds great; cheap, disposable, easily available, but I would like to here the opinions of those that are "in the know" because at this point I'm still learning and while I can't think of any problems, I would rather not learn the hard way.

Thanks

Robert
 
Reaming is a low speed operation where you need a chip clearing and lubricating fluid to enhance the surface finish and to reduce reamer wear. Cooling is not a main consideration.

ATF would be OK if your pump can deliver enough pressure and flow to clear chips from a cutting reamer. You will have to test the system to be sure. Try a reamer setup on a scrap barrel and see if it works.

RWO
 
ls2005019227:

I use a 1/2 hp Sherwood Close coupled Carbonator gear pump with a relief valve (up to 125 PSI). MSC part number 09390774. I have it set up on a 15 gallon tank with a recirculating bypass using two ball valves. It also has a well type 2 micron filter in line after the pump. It goes from black iron pipe to a section of flexible hydrolic line with two swivel couplers, then to a Duff Norton Rotary Coupler. I know of folks who use 100% Molly Dee, Brownells Do Drill, and Black/Dark high Sulfer cutting oil. For the last 4 years I have used Rustlick 255R cut to 5:1. This was the recomendation of the coolant/lubricant manufacture. It is an extreem high pressure coolant/lubricant and is water soluble. Easy to clean up and enviromentally friendly.
I experience no heat or chatter problems. I cut at 175 RPMs throught the headstock getting great chambers.
Rustystud
 
The rotary coupler that Rusty described above is outstanding for production grade chambering, but if you are trying to make 1/2moa rifles or better, you will either need an extremely well set up lathe or cut the chamber "Between Centers". Unfortunately , cutting between centers doesn't lend itself to any constant coolant flood method that I can think of. I was taught in school to manually flush the chamber and clean the reamer every .100" when roughing. I don't build rifles anymore, but I would be happy to share the most sucessful method I found during my 15 years of building them.
 
Thanks for the posts. After doing more research, I have found that my pump is a 1/8hp, and rougly 10gpm. I don't know if this pump will provide the necessary pressure for the job. It may be the case that I will just have to try this if I can't find someone who has went this route to share their results. I have been on the lookout for a Norton rotary coupler, as I have searched this subject and read Rusty's previous posts on this item (good idea). I have decided that I want to chamber through the headstock, as it makes the most sense to me and from what I have heard.

I'm trying to learn all that I can by making various items that will be needed in the process; spider, receiver truing jig, floating reamer holder, etc. I'm obviously a beginner, and hoping that these projects will help to "hone" the skills before I start cutting on a barrel or an action. MrGadget: I'm "all ears" to any tips/tricks or info that you or anyone else would be willing to share. All information is appreciated.

Thanks

Robert
 
Robert, which model Kent did you get? I've been using a Kent TRL1340V for about a year and a half now and like it very well. Only drawback I've seen to it is that its a little long through the headstock.

Mike
 
Hi Robert,

I had to compensate for a taiwanese Lathe with issues, by chambering between centers.
One of the most important things to remember when you are trying to chamber an accurate rifle is that very few barrel bores are straight. If you indicate a bore near the end and then indicate the neck after chambering, they will never be exactly perfect. So my theory was to make my final setup by indicating the barrel where the neck/throat would end up in the final chamber. so to start I would set the barrel up in a 4 jaw with a spider on the end of the headstock bore. Leave enough of the breech end free of the chuck to cut the shank to major thread diameter. I would use this cut for my steady rest. Inicate muzzle and breech until centered. Rough out enough of the chamber to get your indicater inside far enough to indicate at the neck. Once that is dead on, cut the shank to major diameter. if you are going to continue to chamber in the headstock, true the rough chamber so that it is concentric with your new indication. If you are going to chamber with a steady rest, cut a 60degree counter bore for your tailstock center so that you can set up your steady rest. You also want to make sure that enough material is removed from the rough chamber so that your reamer pilot is riding the lands before the shoulder starts to cut. If you are using the rotary coupler to flush, make sure your reamer is fluted under the bushing. Bushing size is very important also. If you are chambering a lot of barrels, go ahead and get the entire bushing size range. I think I liked my bushings about .0005" under the land ID. Keep things cool and clean and it should work well. If you have a borescope, you can see if the pilot is doing any scarring or is too loose causing asymmetry at the throat. Lots of people use floating reamer holders, but I couldn't stand them. A tight pilot bushing and a floating reamer holder affect me deeply :)I drove the reamer with a dead center and a tap handle.I should point out that your tailstock better be perfect if you are going to use this method with the barrel in the headstock. You are just about gauranteed an oversized chamber if it's not. Cutting between centers alleviates many of these alignment issues. You can feel what is going on much better with the tap handle in your hand. Be careful not to stress the barrel when tying down your lathe dog to the driving plate. I used nylon zip ties becuase they were easy to get just right. If you are chambering sporter barrels, make sure you cut the part of the barrel off where your lathe dog set screw was tightened. This could go on all night-- Please ask questions if I am missing things or cut me off if I am stating the obvious. This is an interesting subject to me. I am very curious what methods and tricks others use.
 
MRGadget:

I beg to differ with you. I was a slow learner myself. Most of my 1000 yard shooters guns shoot .5moa. My bench rest shooters guns will shoot in the teens at 100. Just because you were taught one method does not make it neccessarily the best method. I chamber barrels both center to center with a high presure flush system or through the headstock. Either method works well for me.
Regards
Rustystud
 
Robert:

Reamers today are better than ever. IE: piloted, multi fluke, M-7, M-42, and even cabide. They are engineered for cutting a a designated cutting speed and feed. If you don't beleive me call David Kiff at PT&G, Dave Manson Manson Precision Reamers, and they will tell you that the old school of thought has been replaced with a newer school of thought. I cut 305 new chambers and did 115 setbacks in 2005 (ONLY DO GUNSMITHING PARTTIME). Those kind of numbers were not possible for me back 5 years ago. I hope to have at least 5 shooters shooting at Camp Perry in August. I know I will working full bore, no puns intended until August. I suggest you look at Greg Tannels and Mike Bryants web sites.


I have a new Micrometer Adjustable Reamer Stop that is coming out next month. You should get a good floating reamer holder and a Micrometer Adjustable Reamer Stop. These two idems along with a good flush system will make your chamber reaming much better and without any costly mistakes.
Rustystud
 
Hi Rusty,
I didn't mean to imply that my method was the only method that worked well; I was just trying to share what method worked reliably for me with my cheap lathe. I know that a large percentage gunsmiths chamber through the headstock using floating reamer holders with great success. In fact, that was the method I was taught in school. In my situation the axis of my chuck was not repeatable enough in relation to the axis of my headstock bore, and I could visibly watch the bore in sporter barrels change as tightened my chuck jaws. I was assuming the Kent would be similar in quality to my lathe if it was the Taiwanese version.
305 chambers in 2005? Holy SH#$^.
It would take 2 years to chamber 305 barrels using my method. Robert, forget what I said; listen to this guy.
 
MrGadget:

Do you want to learn a trick to cure your spindel and chuck alignment problem?

Asuming the distance from in front of your chuck to out your spindel bore is not longer than your barrel. (Then you have to do something else. IE: self aligning center bearing with rigid pipe inside, to a hollow 60 degree taper.)

Assuming you are using a 4 jaw or 6 jaw independent chuck on one end and a spider on the other end.

Get a piece of 4 gauge copper or aluminum ground wire. Cut a piece long enough for one wrap around the barrel. Then tighten the jaws until you get it centered. Then center the muzzle end using a indexing pin to within .00002 or better. Then center the tendon end .0002 or better. Adjust both ends until you get them running true. It takes several adjustments. when you get it right you can take two simultanious readings 4 inches appart, off and indexing rod and have no run out.

Using the bearing surface of the wire it gives your barrel the ability to flex and not be in a bind of two inches or more of clamping chuck jaws.

I credit this discovery to Butch Lambert, and Mike Bryant I learned this and did not come up with it on my own.

Rustystud
 
Milgunsmith:

There are a number of floating reamers on the market. In fact I have one under development.
Before you buy a floating reamer holder check out Mike Bryants website "Bryantcustomguns". He uses just a cup on drill chuck. Pretty slick.
No particular order.

Bald Eagle floating reamer holders are available through Dave Kiff at PT&G
Manson Floating Reamer Holder is available from Dave Manson precision Reamers.
Clymer Floating reamer holder is available from Clymer tool company.
The JGS floating reamer holder is available from JGS tool company.
Greg Tannel makes a floating reamer holder.

The Micrometer Adjustable Reamer stop will be out hopefully in the next couple of weeks some are being made as this is written. I have about 100 orders. We are going to try and have them available from Brownells, Midway, and Sinclair.
Just be patient they will be worth the wait.
Rustystud
 
Now how come nobody told me about that wire trick 10 years ago?
It seems so obvious now that you told me about it.
I thought about modifying a set of chuck jaws to only have a minimal bearing surface, but settled on the method I described above. It suited me well because I was only barreling 15 or 20 guns a year and turned out beautiful chambers.
I've been thinking about building my young son a rimfire on an old Mauser MAS45 action I have laying around. I think I will give the wire trick a try. Thanks.
 
Mike - I bought the KLS 1340A (China), I would have liked to get the Taiwan model, but this is just a hobby, I am a Land Surveyor full time. I have no experience with any other lathes so my opinion may well go with a grain of salt, but from the appearance, and from the limited amount of work that I have done so far, I have to say that I'm satisfied as I've not encountered any problems.

Rusty - Thanks for the advice. I'm sold on working through the headstock. I agree that Greg and Mike's web sites are a wealth of information. I've also bought Greg's videos on bolt sleeving and blueprinting.

One question with regards to reamers, I have two on order from PTG that have removable pilots. From everything that I have read, it seems to be the concensus that this is the way to go. I did have a gentleman tell me that a removable pilot for a .22 cal. is not the better choice due to the small amount of metal inside the bushing. As a side note, I know that he reams off of the T/stock, with a wrench turning the reamer, and without a flush system. I plan on building a floating reamer holder to alleviate the chance of having the reamer bound upon entry. I guess I'm looking for confirmation that I'm on the right track, and that while a removable pilot may not work well for him and his chambering procedure, that it is fine while using a floating holder.

Maybe I'm thinking this is more simple than it is, but I have plans to build a floating reamer holder out of two 1/2" Aluminum plates turned down, one bored for the reamer and the other bored for a dead center, three or four bolts/nuts with springs for tension. Am I missing something? I know that there are numerous types, this one just seemed simple and fairly easy to make.

Robert
 
"Maybe I'm thinking this is more simple than it is, but I have plans to build a floating reamer holder out of two 1/2" Aluminum plates turned down, one bored for the reamer and the other bored for a dead center, three or four bolts/nuts with springs for tension. Am I missing something? I know that there are numerous types, this one just seemed simple and fairly easy to make"

Is2005019227, You just described Greg Tannels reamer holder. He starts with two rounds of aluminum and a dead center. It works well for me as does a variation on the wire. Jim
 
Do I understand the wire method right.You chuck the barrel at the chamber end using the wire as a shim between the jaws and the barrel? Then using a spider on the other end of the spindle?
 
Yes, the wire is the only point of contact between the chuck jaws and the barrel in their method. It is apparent that the wire must be on an exact plane with the face of the barrel or you will defeat the benefits. The O-ring seems like a great method for setting up the spider in a stress fee manor, but does it maintain itself as the only contact after it is crushed? I can't wait to experiment with these two methods and I would love to hear the opinions of those who have tried both materials.
It has dawned on me that I have tried to reinvent the wheel in a Galopagos reminiscent environment.
I know that my method does achieve great results, but why go to all the extra trouble if this method works as well or better? I looked at the images of the floating reamer holders mentioned in this thread and I can see how they are drastically superior to the unit I used in my experimenting. The unit I used had two flat contact surfaces that were about 1 inch in diameter. If my headstock was not perfectly centered, the contact point between these flat surfaces could would have been roughly .5" off center from the bore axis. The holder that has the radiused driving surface and the hardened flat contact surface will ensure that the point of contact is concentric with the bore and only the force vector of the tail stock would not be colinear if the tailstock was not adjusted right.
 
MrGadget:

The floating reamer holder needs to adjust for both co-axial and concentric misalignment. You want the reamer to follow the bore without influence from the reamer holder. All the reamer holder should do is drive the reamer. If the smith takes his time and aligns the barrel bore with two indicators spaced about 4 inches apart to .00002 or better then the floating reamer holder will do the rest. The bigest problem I see is folks who don't use a test bar and align their tailstock with their spindel. I have a 4", 6", 8", 10", 12", 14", 16", 18", 20", 22", 24", 26, 28", 30", 32", and 36" test bars. I don't care how good your lathe is the beds will not remain perfectly aligned. Time, gravity, wear, all take their toll. You can't make a good (accurate) cut on a lathe if the stock is not aligned with the spindel bore.

You can use old barrels to make your test bars.

Good Luck
Rustystud
 
Rustystud:

I am missing something here. None of the floating holders I saw are able to adjust for co-axial alignment. Sure, they have .030"+ inch of play and will help the reamer achieve coaxial alignment, but they are still not perfect. If the bore axis is not pointing exactly at the tip of the driving center then any lateral resitance between the driving hemisphere of the holder and the flat contact plate will translate into a bias that is fighting the reamer pilot. The test bars will work perfectly if your headstock is perfectly set up, but they are not the total answer. For instance, Your headstock could be shifted 5 degrees in relation to the lathe bed and you could still get your test bars to set up perfectly. Maybe, I am misunderstanding how you use test bars. I am assuming that you cut a 60 degree center on a piece of scrap that is chucked in the headstock, then put your test bar between centers and either indicate at both ends or take a small cut at a set depth at both ends and indicate. Is that how you use them?
 








 
Back
Top