Complete Machining Newbie

Hey guys,

This is my first post here, and I want to throw out some feelers for the best way to educate myself. I know this post is sort of long, so I'll put a concise recap at the bottom of this post. My wife's grandfather and I are firearm enthusiasts and I've noted in passing for several years that, eventually, I'd love to tinker around with some machining equipment so as to fabricate my own parts. Recently, he heavily hinted that I should get him a list of helpful equipment to this end and that he'd do some shopping around for some starter equipment. He has a couple of connections that deal with shops who are selling off their equipment, but he needs to know what I need.

This happened a bit fast and I am very ignorant as to what different functions machine-shop equipment serves, and what all I would need. The goal is small part fabrication with the end goal (years from now?) of primitive/simplistic firearm design.

Concise summary:
What equipment should I put on this list to send to my grandfather-in-law, with the goal of small firearm part fabrication and with the potential end goal of simplistic firearm manufacture (such as black powder rifles, or single shot shotguns)? Are there any brands to avoid at all costs? What are some good resources for someone who is literally just now getting into the machining world? Talk to me like I have no idea what I'm dealing with, because I don't!

Thanks, guys!

With enough contributions, this could become a sticky.

I have a few opinions to start.
No newbie believes you will spend more on tooling than on the machines. It is true.
Hobbyists have time and patience to skip some time saving tooling. This wears off eventually. Buy once, cry once.

Gunsmith starter kit:

Education, look for a local tech school that offers machining night classes. They will teach you speeds, feeds, and safety.

Lathe, 40" between centers, heavier is better, not from China
Phase converter to make 3 phase power from household split phase power
4 jaw chuck is essential (If I had a 3 jaw, it would rarely be worth the trouble of changing)
Steady rest is essential
Follow rest is nice for profiling barrels, but that's a tedious task offered by the barrel supplier for cheap.
Taper attachment is nice, but not essential
DRO is nice but not essential
Go straight to carbide insert tooling: SMALL LATHE TOOLING, AXA TOOLPOST, ccmt inserts, ccgt inserts
Machinery's Handbook, older issue from EBAY is fine. Very little changes.
Calipers, micrometers, dial indicators, good NOGA indicator holder(s)

Mill, I can't say yet

NRDock said:

...Lathe, 40" between centers, heavier is better, not from China...

Click to expand...

I think it will be helpful right from the beginning to do away with the idea that a lathe from China can't be used for
gunsmithing; or anything else, for that matter. There are thousands of people out there who use them on a regular
basis--some are hobbyists but many are also "pros". As you begin your search you have many options: European,
Japanese, Chinese, Taiwanese and, of course, North American. When looking at used machinery condition is often
a lot more important than place of origin.

As for North American made machine tools,you have to understand that, for the most part, no one has made new
stuff here for many decades. While there certainly are exceptions at this moment in time in their lives a high percentage
of North American made lathes are just a worn out POS. Are there decent North American made lathes out there?
Of course, but as they age it is more and more likely that the one you find is going to be in poor condition and need
work before it can be used. Do you want a tool or a project? Do you have time for a project?

Am I saying not to buy North American? Of course not. If you find a non-import machine in really great shape for a
decent price by all means buy it and use it--in the end you buy the best lathe in the best condition for the best price
you can afford. All I'm really saying is that at this point in your project I think it would be unwise to completely ignore
Chinese machinery as an option...

...DRO is nice but not essential...

Click to expand...

While it's true that a DRO isn't "essential" I would certainly put one very high on my list of options.

...Go straight to carbide insert tooling...

Click to expand...

This I completely agree with...

Machines from Harbor Freight should be stricken from you list. Lathes and mills go hand in hand. There are milling adapters for lathes but for serious work they are not practical. Lathes are really good at round things, mills are for flat work. When you get right down to it, there is more mill work than lathe in a typical firearm. I would avoid the mill/drills. A used bridgeport 1 or 2J will handle just about all the milling. These can be had without tooling for $2000 to $4000 depending on condition. They weight about 1800 lbs. A decent amount of tooling, vices/s collets, cutters and assorted other tooling will run $1000 $2000.

I sold a 13" Sheldon with lots of tooling, one that I completely reconditioned, for $2500. The buyer got a good deal, but there is only so much that can be charged for used equipment.

Second make sure you understand THOROUGHLY the federal rules relating the gun making and manufacture.

Tom

First get your self an apprenticeship. Learn on someone else's machines. Shops that are "selling off their equipment" aren't likely selling anything worth a shit. This is not something you learn overnight. You will never be done buying tooling and equipment so factor that in.

At this point in your machining career, you really need to find out if it is something that is going to keep your interest for a long time, and if it is, you need to learn the basics. Community college machinist classes are the best idea since you get both machines and training. But even old, tired machines in your garage would be useful. You can learn the basics on them without the risk of damaging a better machine. And if you get through your initial learning period without a disastrous crash, there will be another new guy some time in the future you can sell them to who will appreciate them.

So go ahead and ask for a lathe (12x36 or 14x40 are good sizes) and a Bridgeport mill or a smaller one like a Clausing or Rockwell and get going.

This is a lot of awesome info - thanks guys. A community college class or two sounds pretty reasonable. I haven't done it yet because I travel for months at a time for business - I'll try to coordinate something.

So this list thus far has:
Bridgeport 1 or 2J
12x36 or 14x40 lathe
Phase converter
A DRO
Steady rest
A 4 jaw lathe chuck
Dials, micrometer, indicator, and indicator holders

The tooling I'll get will likely come already bundled with whatever equipment he potentially buys. When I purchase tooling of my own to replace it, I'll keep the carbide suggestion in mind.

I disagree with the carbide comments and here is why:

If you always purchase your cutting bits then you won't learn first hand about geometry, materials, speeds, etc. You are dependent on buying what you need. Understand some fundamentals learned while creating your own bits then you can know when appropriate to upgrade to carbide.

Example: A fellow I worked with some time ago was trying to use a carbide insert face mill appropriate for steel to face a block of plastic. Nylon or acetal I don't remember. Crappy finish and all he knew to do was put new inserts in. I set up a fly cutter for him with high speed steel shaped for cutting plastic. He thought I was a magician.

Many of us here are old enough to remember when the Japanese were jokes who sold junk, then it was the Taiwanese, then the Koreans, then the Chinese. Developing economies start out making cheap low quality goods, and evolve to produce more expensive higher quality goods.

Just after my first post, a 2019 Grizzly Industrial catalog showed up in my mailbox. Not sure why they send them to me. I did buy a POS belt/disc sander from them about 20 years ago.

Grizzly is offering a wide spectrum of manual machines, including some under the South Bend name. They are claiming to have some machines made in ISO 9001 facilities. Some of their lathes have "Precision" bearings. Like others before them, the Chinese will make high quality machine tools. I'd guess they are making the transition now, so I'll temper my "No Chinese" statement. In the past, they have definitely sold some real crap, so maybe we should say "Avoid used Chinese"?

I notice, all their "Gunsmith" lathes have an unspecified country of origin (China), while the High Precision Tool Room lathe is proudly labeled "Made in Taiwan".

Their 16 x 40 Professional gunsmith lathe looks kind of nice, but it's 10 grand. Since worn ways are of little consequence to a gunsmith, there are still lots of used machines available that are easier on the budget.

Simple fact is the Asians have made machine tools affordable for hobbyists.......go back sixty years ,and you find a guy setting up a shop (me) considering paying $1500 for a cone head lathe......a new lathe was twice the price of a new car,ex WW2 surplus heavy duty machines sold for astronomical sums.

Add a decent bench grinder and a hand full of high speed tool bits for the one-up tool bits shapes you can't buy in carbide.
A magnifying glass and a loop so you can pick up a thread center or other feature.
A digital caliper;
a fish gauge and both metric and imperial thread gauges.
A bought or home made tap wrench that slips over a post so can be hand fed to the work in lathe,mill or drill press that also has a center at far end.
Oh .. a stand-up drill press with a vise and thread chart handy
A jobber set of HSS drills in 1/64s
a set of number drills
A tap set.
not a bad idea to have a surface plate and a surface gauge that can hold a scriber or an indicator.
a V block so you might hold a thing to machine or measure. Like running down a barrel to spot a sight location,
A decent vise for drill press or mill..Perhaps a bigger and smaller vise.
Bore measuring tools.
A square top hand protractor.
* Buy some gun smith books, no you cant learn much from them but will know what kinds of jobs you might get.
looks like perhaps $6000+ if finding good used bargain stuff..You don't want machine building projects but running and ready machines..
Perhaps good to take a lathe and mill hand along for machine shopping.

Nobody cares that you are a newbie.. the better title would be "getting started in gun smithing" so down the road others could find the information

Search ability makes this site better than a hobby site if good titles are used.

The "getting started" ad nauseum thing is pretty much a weekly topic so a search would be in order. This constant "I want to buy a lathe and be a gunsmith" shit is suited for a hobby site.

For what it’s worth,
I agree with the post stating “ Take a shop class or apprentice program.
The basics of the trade are very important.
If you’re a half ass machinist, you’re going to be a half ass gunsmith.

Kleinfeldt said:

For what it’s worth,
I agree with the post stating “ Take a shop class or apprentice program.
The basics of the trade are very important.
If you’re a half ass machinist, you’re going to be a half ass gunsmith.

Click to expand...

Even one of the Summer NRA gunsmithing classes will help. They're available at several of the gunsmithing schools.

Summer NRA Courses - Trinidad State Junior College

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Basics:
Eisen 1236gh for $3800. Has chucks, steady, etc
Get carbide insert tooling used on eBay. Get new inserts. FACT: You don’t need to spend as much on tooling as you do the lathe to build rifles. Plenty of deals to be had. Chinese cheapo ebay carbide inserts work well. I’ve tested them with my iscar and kennemetal. You will need help figuring out the carbide tooling/insert codes.
Get a nice set of calipers. Save money and get a mm dial indicator off eBay for dialing in barrels. MM sell for cheap on eBay and work fine since you’re just looking for movement. Indicator holders for under $20 on ebay work fine. Always upgrade later if you want to.
Buy once, cry once is not always needed. Many cheaper options will build very accurate rifles. Good luck

My advice is to start with nothin......then you will appreciate what you manage to find,scrounge and steal from work.

Also a excellent school in Oklahoma with a top notch gunsmithing dept. They have a machine shop to die for, including two dozen 13” South Bends in mint condition. By all means get your feet wet in the NRA Summer Program. It’s About $300 for a 5-day course, cheap $50/night student
lodging, includes 1 meal. Great way to use a weeks vacation.

http://www.mscok.edu/sites/www/Uploads/Users/595/Files/NRA 2019 Summer Catalog.pdf

Are you willing to put your name on said parts, and back them up when they kill someone (user or target)?

I can make any part I want. Just think about what you are really doing, and what you're enabling others to do.

You and granpa making a rifle is completely different from putting out uppers, lowers, or other parts to make a kit. Not that I give a shit.

Buy a mini lathe and a mini mill. Harbor Freight is fine. Use these to learn on and change/upgrade as needed. You will not be able to make parts right at the start, do simple projects. Turn bar stock to a specific diameter. Make a screw. Mill perfect cubes. Turn them into dice. Make a firing pin. Make an action wrench. Get used to hardening steels. Make a spring (no machine required).

Once you are used to the equipment, try milling out an 80% lower and building it. Eventually you'll figure out that making parts is a very small portion of what gunsmiths do.



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