Cutting rifling in a 410 shotgun barrel.

Ranb · May 12, 2004

I want to make a 410 caliber pump action pistol. Since I live in the USA, the only way to do this without going the NFA route and getting ATF permmission is to start with a 410 shotgun equipped with a pistol grip from the factory. I also have to equip it with a rifled barrel to avoid the NFA AOW catagory. Is there a simple way to cut shallow rifling grooves into a smooth bore shotgun barrel? The grooves do not have to be deep, or even very good, just there. I have a lathe. I will be shooting 1.25" shells in the pistol. Thanks.

Ranb

GGaskill · May 12, 2004

The last thing I would claim to be is a lawyer specializing in BATF subjects, but unless you have a letter from the BATF stating what you want to do is legal, I think it is not. You are permitted to make rifles from pistols but not the other way round.

Ranb · May 13, 2004

If a shotgun comes from the factory without a shoulder stock, then legally it is not really a long arm. The 410 gauge is also less than 50 caliber, so it is not a destructive device. All I need is the rifled barrel. Take a look at this link.
http://www.serbu.com/shorty.htm
It describes the shotgun to AOW route.

Ranb

GGaskill · May 14, 2004

I don't want to beat this to death but I wouldn't like to see you have an encounter with the BATF either. The bottom line of your reference reads, "Note: The SUPER-SHORTY is registered per the National Firearms Act of 1934. Please read the section on our home page on how to buy an NFA weapon from us." So I don't think making a pistol from a pistol grip only shotgun really keeps it from being a controlled weapon.

I am not arguing that any of this is logical, only that it is the law, and the courts give precedence to the opinions of the BATF over those of ordinary citizens.

Ranb · May 14, 2004

The two reasons that the Serbu shorty is an NFA weapon is that it is greater than 50 caliber and a smooth bore pistol. A 410 pump action pistol made from a new pistol grip shotgun meets none of the NFA specifications on the ATF website. I'll write a letter to ask just to make sure, but I have been waiting over six months for a reply to my question on form 1 suppressor repair.

So does anyone know of an easy way to put rifling in a smooth bore shotgun barrel?

Ranb

Michigander · May 14, 2004

I would also echo the warning about the BATF. Don't assume your logic is correct, it may be. The BATF is not bound by logic.

That being said, there are at least 2 commercially offered .410 pistol that I know of, the T/C Contender, and the Thunder 5.

Hastings makes barrels by the electrolytic machining process. There is a company in Michigan by the name of Cation that will do this work for you. I do not know the price.

The other option would be to install a rifled choke tube whic hshould be a realitively straighforward procedure. T/C makes a .410 barrel for the contender. The choke tube rifling, however, is straight, not helical. This is to create better patterns from a short barrel by arresting any spin on the shot cup.

mendoje1 · May 14, 2004

The better option would be to purchase a rifled barrel blank in .410, then contour and chamber as needed. Where to get a rifled blank, well, that's the next question.

GGaskill · May 14, 2004

Regarding rifling the smoothbore, the first step would be making sure the bore is truly cylindrical without any choke. Rifle barrels are reamed (and sometimes lapped) to achieve this state. Then you need some kind of machine that will pull the rifling cutter and rotate the barrel or the cutter in a synchronized manner. It would be possible to add a sine bar device to a lathe but a lot of work. You could also add a large gear train to a lathe to achieve the relationships needed to get rifling of the proper pitch. It would be possible to cut grooves in the bore without the twist by hand cranking the lathe carriage to pull the cutter. A .410" rifling head would be a relatively easy one to make. Basically you make a cylindrical section with a groove for the cutter, a couple of threaded holes for the pull rod and the adjusting screw, a cutter to scrape the grooves, and a wedge to adjust the cutting depth. Then make hundreds of passes up and down the bore until you have the grooves deep enough (you cut about .0001" per pass.)

Check out this article for more info.

[This message has been edited by GGaskill (edited 05-14-2004).]

GGaskill · May 26, 2004

One more thought on this subject--shotgun barrels are usually very thin compared to pistol and rifle barrels. You may need to limit cartridge pressure to abnormally low values to prevent bursting the thin former shotgun barrel. You can buy .410" barrels (normally used for .40-65 black powder rifles) from Douglas.

Andreuha · May 29, 2004

FYI, there are ready-made pistols capable of shooting .410.

Most common one is the "Thunder 5". Chambered in .45LC and fully capable of shooting .410 (as advertised).

http://www.thunder5.com/docs1.html

jeffeosso · May 29, 2004

must be 27(?) inches long, or so, it's a class 3, UNLESS it started life as a pistol.

ask the folks with a 10 or 14" contender that was MADE in 410. They all have letters from the batf

short shortguns are class 3, that is barrel under 18" and/or an under over all length.. this is the "bonnie and clyde" rule, do to them using EXTREMELY chomped down shotguns under coats.

You need to pay a visit to your local batfe office and chat with an inspector

jeffe

Rick Hand · Jun 12, 2004

There is a gunsmith in my area that advertises that he can rifle shotgun bird barrels for deer slugs but since the .410 is not legal for deer hunting here, I don't know if he has the tooling for .410. If you are still interested and haven't found a source, I will find his number for you.
Rick

Skeeve · Aug 17, 2004

"The two reasons that the Serbu shorty is an NFA weapon is that it is greater than 50 caliber and a smooth bore pistol. A 410 pump action pistol made from a new pistol grip shotgun meets none of the NFA specifications on the ATF website. I'll write a letter to ask just to make sure, but I have been waiting over six months for a reply to my question on form 1 suppressor repair.

So does anyone know of an easy way to put rifling in a smooth bore shotgun barrel?"

You are incorrect. The reason the Serbu shorty is an NFA is because they started off with a shotgun receiver. Since you plan on doing the same, adding rifling to the barrel will not in any way get you off the hook with the BATFmen [the "F" is silent, btw...

]

If you start off with a non-registered receiver and originally *build it* as a pistol w/ a rifled barrel, then the BATF will look upon you with favor.

[Please note: IANAL, nor do I purport that my interpretation of Federal non-law is correct. I am just trying to keep you from making a huge error. Run your plans by the BATF in a letter and get their formal blessing before you try any of this.]

Ciao!

sandman2234 · Oct 17, 2004

I own a Contender with 45LC/.410 barrel.
I also own an Ithaca Stakeout,AOW, 12 inch barrel pump shotgun, pistol grip. I picked it up from my class III dealers after purchasing it online. He walked out to the truck and handed me a buttstock, told me to put it up, then come inside and we would finish the task at hand.
A buttstock can never, ever have been on an AOW or it changes it's clasification to a SBS, which requires a $200 tax stamp. If the receiver was built as a SBS, then it can never be an AOW.
They don't make these things easy to determine, but they will make it easy for you to be in deep trouble if they catch you on the wrong side of their opinion.
Waiting six more months is better than years in the pokey, or years without your gun rights because they will take them away in a heartbeat.
David from jax

NevadaBlue · Oct 17, 2004

Just curious, why not start from scratch? Buy a rifled barrel, or cut very shallow rifling in a barrel and build the rest. A pump action .410 should be an easy build, just copy an existing design. This way, it is a pistol from the start. Also, you can build it .45/.410, use any length shell you want.

I like the idea, think I'll go to the patent site and look for pump actions.

Gazz · Oct 17, 2004

You are asking for trouble by taking a shotgun and making a pistol out of it.
I believe the TC contender barrels are rifled and the choke tube has straight rifling to take the spin out of the shot charge so they would group tighter. I don't know why you couldn't put straight rifling in the barrel since the ATF does not specify any twist rate, just that it must be rifled. Or you could use a .45 Colt barrel like T/C does. Why not make your own receiver and just use the internals from your pump shotgun?

toolmakerjim · Oct 17, 2004

ranb:
i have been following this since you started you have never stated why you have to build a .410 rifled pump pistol.
arent .410 shells 3" or so long?
isnt a 2 3/4" forcing cone a little long? seems like a recipe for major lead shaving/fouling to me.
if you are really intent on doing this mr gaskills posts 5-14-2004 @3:27 and 5-26-2004 @6:47 are good advice.
you will need to calculate your groove and land dimensions and tool accordingly.
not prying or advocating just curious...jim

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