Guns in a Fire

I am not a gunsmith. An acquaintance had a fire and several firearms were in involved. The stocks were destroyed and even the springs in the guns lost their temper. He thinks with new springs and stocks they would be safe to use. I am not so sure this is a good idea at all and recommended they be destroyed. What is a good plan here. Thank you. beech

Fire damage to the point of spring tension loss is bad news. Maybe a few parts are salvageable but not many. Certainly those requiring strength are pretty much shot. Fire damaged guns often develop a thick scale with pitting underneath that is hard to deal with. While Restocking and Refinishing is possible IMHO its is just wrong. Funny thing is the non antiques are still technically firearms which may complicate things. Best use for those beyond hope is being attached a board and attaching board to wall. Some gunshops won't even take em for free due to legal hassles.

Guns that have been in a fire to the point that as stated "the springs lost their temper", absoluty need to be destroyed. All of the critical compoents, barrel, action, frame, have lost their temper also. Barrel is probably warped, not straight, even if the hardness was still there, it'll never shoot straight again.

If the gun was of histrical value, It could be restored for display only, I would think, but made where it could never be fired again.

I'll let the "qualified gunsmiths" tune in with their comments.

Ken

These posts are correct as were you. The metallurgy in a firearm is paramount. Heating 'em enough to change the strength of the steel renders them dangerous to use. KB=KaBoom.

Best to cut em up to prevent anyone from ever firing it/them.

Wait til the next PC gun buy-back program in your locale, and trade them in for (enter your sport here) tickets.

Make them wall decorations.

don't destroy them yourself though....



...wait until some liberal gun grabbing sheriff/police department has a no questions asked "buy back" program and gives you $200 each for them.

that's the type of guns they're really getting off the street anyways.

edit: guess i should have read the rest of the posts before responding. kendog beat me to it.

KB or Kaboom, can go right back to the Glock forum, where it does'nt belong either..

Technical terms are used to describe failures/faults/issues...

An out of battery discharge, incorrect heat treat (ala early 1903 Springfields), cartridge case base/wall failure, barrel failure, faulty steel (seams inclusions), locking lug failure, overcharge, protruding primer, protruding firing pin, incorrect powder, a too deeply seated bullet, which may have occured during chambering or during loading, incorrect caliber ammunition, bore obstructions, etc.....

KABOOM Is not an accepted word at a proofhouse.. Won't get you anywhere in court either..

Back on topic,

If springs have been annealed, and the guns are not rare/historical. Take a cutting torch to them, and finish them off. Be sure they have unloaded chamber and magazine of course.. Bookends anyone??

If they are rare.. You could weld them up (in inconspicuous places) solid. No need to surprise/injure someone 50 years from now.. They will still be considered firearms, even welded up, by current law.. Value is almost nothing on a burnt shooter grade gun, though a Civil War relic for example, will have some value.. Re heattreating unknown old steel/iron, is just not practical for most burnt guns.. The corrosion and pitting is also usually so deep, they will never look right again..

I would ether trade them in to a gun buy-back program.

Or save them after you soak them in oil in case the government goes door to door confiscating guns.
This would be just what the government would deserve to get.

My shooting uncles when I was a kid insisted 22lr guns from a fire like that would be ok if the springs were replaced. Sounded good back then..but today I know the saami maximum pressure for 22lr and 22wmr is 24,000 psi...nothing to make light of.

maybe .22LR

You could probably make a .22LR firearm with PVC tubing (but don't). Certainly plenty of zipguns have been made over the years with hardware-store pipe.
I would consider a .22 for reclaiming. Anything bigger, or centerfire, definitely not.

A friend of mine (now deceased) had a fire, and had several guns were involved, though not to the extent that the O/P mentioned. His were more of a burnt/peeled the finish on the wood and water damage, though he did get the guns out almost immediately. He had a friend who did reblueing and another who did refinishing, so several of the guns went to be redone. A few years later, I was looking for a particular gun, and knew he had several, so I did some trading with him on it. I was shooting skeet with it, and on the second clay shot after a day of shooting with it, the gun failed to completely eject the casing. I just kicked the cartridge out and went to put another in, when something caught my eye. Upon better inspection, the two sides of the receiver were slightly bowed out. Sent the gun to the manufacturer, and a sample of the factory shells to the loading company, both came back pointing fingers at the other. Nothing wrong with the ammo, per ammo company, must be the gun, nothing wrong with the gun, must have been the ammo per the gun company. I got to thinking about it, and now the gun sits in the corner unrepaired, as a reminder that guns have a history that is never forgotten, even if the owner forgets, or just doesn't know. This friend of mine would never (in my opinion of him) have sold a gun to anyone, especially me, if he thought it would have ever malfunctioned.
Heat from a fire reaches temps that changes metal without it being visible to the eye, or even microscope sometimes. If there is a fire, consider that it may be one of your kids putting the gun to their shoulder when the receiver blows up in their face. It may look safe, but is it? I still consider myself EXTREMELY LUCKY with that receiver going KABOOM.
David from jax

Rex TX said:

You could probably make a .22LR firearm with PVC tubing (but don't). Certainly plenty of zipguns have been made over the years with hardware-store pipe.
I would consider a .22 for reclaiming. Anything bigger, or centerfire, definitely not.

Click to expand...

I would not want to shoot a gun made of PVC firing a 22lr (up to 24,000 psi inside the gun when fired), the only way that would work is if you made the bore so large that the bullet never sealed, and that is a different matter apparently.

Bill

If you make them into wall hangers, years from now, when their history is forgotten, some one might try to shoot them and be hurt.

abarnsley said:

KB or Kaboom, can go right back to the Glock forum, where it does'nt belong either.

Technical term are used to describe failures/faults/issues...

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Man, I hope you're not upset at me for using kaBOOM to describe the worst case scenario using a fire damaged firearm.

It's a great word. A word that imitates or suggests the source of the sound that it describes. I thought it was a fitting in such an informal discussion. (I like it )

You are fully correct though, its not part of any nomenclature used professionally. I do recall the GLOCK fan community taking particular offense with it as it's used disparagingly at times.

Just a question....could these firearms be re-heat treated to restore proper temper if everything else is still in spec?
Unless the firearm is big money item, historically significant or a family heirlooom it would probably be cost prohibitive.
DC

CozInCowtown said:

Just a question....could these firearms be re-heat treated to restore proper temper if everything else is still in spec?
Unless the firearm is big money item, historically significant or a family heirlooom it would probably be cost prohibitive.
DC

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I would think in many cases there would be oxidation from the fire that would be destructive, and re heat treat, then polish and reblue would all start to eclipse the value of the gun. The 22lr in question in one fire was a 22lr stainless ruger single six, all it needed was new springs and a polish job..they shined it up to a brilliant polish...the owner was THRILLED.....most other folks....emm not :-).

On the plus side, your acquaintance has a nice pile of scrap metal that's just begging to be turned into Damascus!

I forget the title of one of the gunsmithing books that I have that discusses the various heat treatments used for firearms. Basically the author states that .22 rf rifles, handguns and shotguns do not use heat treating other than for springs or to provide parts with better wear resistance such as with hammers or sears. There were .22 pistols made well into the last century that used brass frames and some shotgun receivers that were cast iron, well into the period of popular use of smokeless powder. Firearms that have been exposed to fire may or may not be beyond redemption. A centerfire rifle that has had its stock completely burned off and the springs turned as soft as black binding wire would probably be not worth saving. While the action may still withstand the pressures of firing, it may be soft and eventually headspace could become an issue. Continued firing would make the headspace worse with the possibility of a case rupture which can destroy a firearm and cause injury to the shooter or bystanders. Also, a piece of steel that got that hot in that uncontrolled environment would be covered in fire scale and probably severely pitted, including the bore which would make its use as a shooter less than ideal. I myself would not hesitate to restore a .22rf firearm, a handgun or shotgun that was fire damaged to shooting / using as long as its bore was good. The book I have referred to is probably from the 30's and of course was written prior to the introduction of rifle caliber handguns and I would treat those types of firearms accordingly.

Gazz said:

I forget the title of one of the gunsmithing books that I have that discusses the various heat treatments used for firearms. Basically the author states that .22 rf rifles, handguns and shotguns do not use heat treating other than for springs or to provide parts with better wear resistance such as with hammers or sears. There were .22 pistols made well into the last century that used brass frames and some shotgun receivers that were cast iron, well into the period of popular use of smokeless powder. Firearms that have been exposed to fire may or may not be beyond redemption. A centerfire rifle that has had its stock completely burned off and the springs turned as soft as black binding wire would probably be not worth saving. While the action may still withstand the pressures of firing, it may be soft and eventually headspace could become an issue. Continued firing would make the headspace worse with the possibility of a case rupture which can destroy a firearm and cause injury to the shooter or bystanders. Also, a piece of steel that got that hot in that uncontrolled environment would be covered in fire scale and probably severely pitted, including the bore which would make its use as a shooter less than ideal. I myself would not hesitate to restore a .22rf firearm, a handgun or shotgun that was fire damaged to shooting / using as long as its bore was good. The book I have referred to is probably from the 30's and of course was written prior to the introduction of rifle caliber handguns and I would treat those types of firearms accordingly.

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The pressure of cartridges back then were lower. Also black powder was still in use. Also those were probably low grade firearms. If you look at a lot of double barrel shotguns, some have case hardened frames. Same with single action pistols. Mauser actions were also case hardened. Steel can be reharndend. I think case harnding can be done two or three times on a frame. At least that is what I remeber being told. So it would come down to what the OP frie arms are and their values. Also some of the initial imported Chinese firearms had problems with soft recievers. I am thinking the Norinco M-14.
Tom