Thread: Guns to scare off grizzleys

Originally Posted by 9100

"Most of the time" in this case refers to my 1911s. The first was a standard issue one made by Ithaca. I came upon a quantity of issue ball ammunition, so I never fired anything else in it. It ejected straight up, not very vigorously, but it never hung a case. The present one is accurized, probably by the Springfield Arsenal. A fellow in the National Guard bought it through the Army and when he left the guard sold it to me.

Since I take multiple guns to a range, it is rare for me to fire more than 50 .45 rounds. Nevertheless, I would have at least one malfunction almost every session. Supposedly knowledgeable people said I needed a combat ejector, so I installed one. All that did was dent the case mouth before it hung it. The story goes that when John Moses was designing the 1911, the Army wanted it to eject straight up so as to not bother someone next to the shooter. He made an extractor/ejector setup that would pivot the case to the right, where it hit the bottom edge of the ejection port and bounced up. Following instructions I found on the internet, I cut the bottom of the opening lower so the case would clear it. Now it ejects violently sideways, but is still picky about ammunition. I have not had a malfunction with Federal hardball or Remington Golden Sabre, so that is what I use. Other brands may or may not work. I don't care how many rounds have been fired in how many automatic weapons. 98% reliability, which is what I had in the beginning with the 1911, is not acceptable for social purposes and my .357 has a perfect 100% track record.

Bill

1911's eject to the side, same angle as the port is cut to. There's a corelation to that. Not "up". Where do you get this BS?

WHAT "guy next to you"? The BAR man? The SAW or M60 gunner? How about Mah Deuce?
Hot brass is annoying? No shit. War is like that.

Harbouring an unreliable POS is as ridiculous as keeping it as a pet to support the fool "rationalization" story!

It has been f**ked with by amateurs. Smelt that defective 1911.

Buy yer OWN beer instead of dining out on "war (NOT!) stories".

One fewer fool with a self-inflicted problem and maybe the "wheelgun is better lie" dies out in only 199.999 years?



The ONLY thing a "wheelgun is better" for is person with hands too tiny to wrap around an in-grip magazine and a wrist too weak to hold point-of-aim with a broomhandle Mauser. The "Ladysmith" and "Airweight" crowd, IOW.

Various writers/video makers/etc on Bears - all seem serious - and mostly agree that "trying to scare it off" is a pointless exercise. The firearms discussed are either things like 454casul, 460magnum, 500S&W - mostly as last ditch very close quarters surprized by the bear implements to be carried in rapid access chest holster.

The long guns discussed are always things that carry a huge wallop - 300 WinMag, 45-70 with a very heavy bullet, things like 375 ruger or 375H&H (literal elephant rounds), and of course 12 gauge slugs. I think there's a "cohort" effect with 12ga - they're very common and so show up a lot in statistics as being successfully used.

When .308/30-06 are considered on the small/light side, you know you are in scary territory....

Originally Posted by bryan_machine

When .308/30-06 are considered on the small/light side, you know you are in scary territory....

Sensible people use bear spray, which has the desirable effect of making them go away instead of getting pissed off.

Way back, 1965 to be exact, I was charged by a brown bear in SE Alaska. I had a .375 H&H Mag loaded with 270 gr Winchester factory loads. Bear charged from behind and by the time I heard him and turned around he was about 30 feet away. I remember thinking should I shoot him in the head or the chest. Decided the chest was the right spot and pulled the trigger. Mr bear went end over end with the bullet passing through his chest and heart. dead, No!! He was bawling & roaring as he rolled around in the brush. i had two more rounds which I fired into him. Finally, after 4 or 5 minutes he finally died but he never got up again.
Another bear story-- a sheep hunting buddy had shot a sheep and was walking out of the hunting area. He had the meat in his pack with his camp gear and the horns tied on top. His rifle on his shoulder. With out warning he suddenly is flying through the air.
as he lands he looks back to see the griz comming for him and before he can do anything the bear grabs him by the ankle and yanks him up in the air but the bears teeth get stuck in the mesh material in the top of his boot so he's hanging there upside down the bear shaking him trying to get him loose but can't. He manages to swing his rifle around, a 30-06, and stick the muzzel against in the middle of the bears chest and pulls the trigger. The bear just stands there and drops him on the ground. The bear turns around and leaves as if nothing happened.He picks himself up, minus the sheep horns which the bear took with him, and stagger out to his car and then to the hospital for stitches. I have a lot of respect for bears! They can be hard to kill. No caliber is to big when you are in these situations!

I wonder what bears think of the smell of black powder? I like it.

In the same way as the smell of racing castor oil..... ;-)

Hard cast flat point bullets are designed for deep penetration in a straight line. Round nose bullets can veer off or tumble. Soft points or hollow points are designed to stop penetrating after a certain distance. In pistol calibers that distance is iffy for large bears.

They had a saying in Alaska that went something like, "The big bears regard everything within their territory as one of only three F-categories. It's there for food, to fight, or..." and I won't mention the third one. I'll tell a "True Alaska Bear Story!!!" I heard up there, probably in a bar.

A prospector had a claim halfway up the side of a mountain that he walked up and down every day. One trip he came across a grizzly cub. The cub followed him back to his cabin. Over time the prospector made the bear a pet.

When the bear got big enough the prospector started riding the bear up and down the mountain. One day the prospector gets ready to go back to the cabin but can't find his bear. He searches around in the brush and finally finds it. He starts to get up on the bear for the ride home but for some reason the bear acts like he doesn't want to leave.

After much swearing and kicking the prospector finally convinces the bear to head back down the mountain. When they arrived he was somewhat surprised to see that "his" bear was already at the cabin.

Originally Posted by UncleFrank

I'll tell a "True Alaska Bear Story!!!" I heard up there, probably in a bar.

Probably the same bar as this one.

A man standing next a road in Colorado was suddenly attacked by a bear. Fortunately, two hunters came out of the woods on the other side of the road and promptly dispatched the bear. One hunter looked after the victim while the other started to skin the bear and after a minute said "Is the bait still usable or do we have to go back to Massachusetts for another one?"

Bill

Originally Posted by CalG

A black powder 45 revolver would be my choice to scare a creature. Lots of fire, bang and smoke.

Revolvers

nb

Might not work, ;-)

And a .44 magnum or shotgun as a backup, just in case.

Pffft, just use a shampoo they like ...

Originally Posted by 9100

Probably the same bar as this one.

A man standing next a road in Colorado was suddenly attacked by a bear. Fortunately, two hunters came out of the woods on the other side of the road and promptly dispatched the bear. One hunter looked after the victim while the other started to skin the bear and after a minute said "Is the bait still usable or do we have to go back to Massachusetts for another one?"

Bill

... and then.. the long claws on the paw of 800 lbs of the lead "top" in a quietly assembled raping-line of forty grinning Bears set down a 30 gallon pail of "Boy Butter"... and the REAL games of "pulling a train" began...

Storal of the morey?

Yah don't f**k with Bears.

THEY f**k with YOU!

Originally Posted by CalG

Cap and ball revolvers are loaded with oversized balls. the pressing process shears off an annular ring as the ball is forced into the cylinder bore.
.470 for a 45 caliber revolver is not unheard of. Best suited for loading a cylinder removed from the pistol frame and using a simple arbor press. That number was just thrown out there "to assure a tight seal". ;-)

And conicals not only shoot better but will do more damage than a round ball. I've shot them through one side of a steel 55 gallon drum at 30 yds with my 7" barreled 1858 Remington replica.

Originally Posted by Scottl

And a .44 magnum or shotgun as a backup, just in case.

To scare away? likely something like an air horn of the type used at sailboat races at close range, and 12 gauge bird-bangers at a distance. The bird-bangers have both noise and flash.

Originally Posted by thermite

1911's eject to the side, same angle as the port is cut to. There's a corelation to that. Not "up". Where do you get this BS?

WHAT "guy next to you"? The BAR man? The SAW or M60 gunner? How about Mah Deuce?
Hot brass is annoying? No shit. War is like that.

Harbouring an unreliable POS is as ridiculous as keeping it as a pet to support the fool "rationalization" story!

It has been f**ked with by amateurs. Smelt that defective 1911.

Buy yer OWN beer instead of dining out on "war (NOT!) stories".

One fewer fool with a self-inflicted problem and maybe the "wheelgun is better lie" dies out in only 199.999 years?



The ONLY thing a "wheelgun is better" for is person with hands too tiny to wrap around an in-grip magazine and a wrist too weak to hold point-of-aim with a broomhandle Mauser. The "Ladysmith" and "Airweight" crowd, IOW.

Not true. The larger wheelguns can be loaded up to levels unattainable by the semi-autos. For a while there was talk of people carrying 10mm autos in bear country but apparently the trend is back to the big wheelguns. A .45 Colt can be loaded up to near magnum levels and the once king of the hill .44 Magnum is now puny compared to the big boys. Large, yes. Heavy, yes, but so is a grizzly.

Around Anchorage, where we actually had bears, we just stayed out of their way. Worked pretty good.

Originally Posted by Scottl

Not true. The larger wheelguns can be loaded up to levels unattainable by the semi-autos.

Absolute BULLSHIT! "Unattainable" my aching ass. Cowboy-nostalgia dick-swinging CARRY THEATRE and the endless lies about it!



Semi-auto can chamber whatever yah got. How much power can you stand to FIRE and not be injured? Check the .50 AE. Near as dammit identical ballistics to a Sharps .50-110 Buffalo RIFLE!

The limit ain't what semi-auto can handle. A Barrett fifty is semi-auto. You got the stones to carry it as a HANDGUN?

Sidearms are "side" arms. Yah run out of HUMAN limits long before yah run out of CARTRIDGE limits. Time for a long gun. Shotgun. Rifle. F**ks sake, hand grenades or rocket-launchers? How BIG does a wheelgun have to get... to match a two-ounce radio call relayed to an inbound B-f**king-52 "Arc light" strike?

Look at a revolver cylinder!

Wall thickness is the same all 360-degrees around centerline of each bore?
Noticed that might affect strength, have yah?

IOW - you have that exactly BACKWARDS! Wheelgun has to be heavier built, any given chambering. More than one chamber? Do the math. And now yah have to hold 'em good for the stress of firing, not just feeding?

"Unattainable"? is it? Bofors, Oerlikon, a Breda/Oto-Melara "Fast-Forty" not enough?

DARDO - Wikipedia

War Two USN shore-bombardment cruisers mounted EIGHT INCH naval rifles in quad turrets. SELF LOADERS. The only "revolver" was the turret, entire. "Unattainable" was the other poor bastard's chance of survival.

Yah wanna calculate revolver cylinders for 8" weed-whacker shells? How about "speed loaders"? A tracked and lightly-armoured 8" SP HOW needs a freaking hoist to git that s**t down to land-mobile when the Navy can't reach far enough inland from just off the beach.

Get yer brain in gear about metallurgy and shape of metals.

The basics of ONE chamber, integral with the barrel, NO gap, no alignment "clocking", no leakage, no "axle", no frame distortion stress - vs the dreadful shortcomings of antiques AKA "wheelguns" living off nostalgia.

Nostalgia ain't a BAD thing. A good blade is still serious-useful.

If you like your FLINT, you can KEEP your flint and just be f**ked on the health-scare plan.


But do NOT claim flint is stronger than steel nor an exotic alloy.

IOW .... don't confuse nostalgia with physics.

The discussion was about handguns. The .50 cal. Desert Eagle is probably in the class of potential handguns (noting that NO handgun is the best choice) but most all the heavy hitters are revolvers and the huge advantage of a revolver is the range of ammunition they can handle.

All your word-salad BS about naval guns is just noise because the discussion was about something a person could CARRY in bear country. Most people serious about protection have a hard-hitting long gun but many still carry a large caliber sidearm in case they get attacked while doing something where they had to set the long gun down.

Originally Posted by thermite

Absolute BULLSHIT! "Unattainable" my aching ass. Cowboy-nostalgia dick-swinging CARRY THEATRE and the endless lies about it!



Semi-auto can chamber whatever yah got. How much power can you stand to FIRE and not be injured? Check the .50 AE. Near as dammit identical ballistics to a Sharps .50-110 Buffalo RIFLE!

The limit ain't what semi-auto can handle. Look at a revolver cylinder! Wall thickness is the same all 360-degrees around centerline of each bore?

Noticed that might affect strength, have yah? IOW - you have that exactly BACKWARDS!

"Unattainable"? is it? Bofors, Oerlikon, a Breda/Oto-Melara "Fast-Forty" not enough?

DARDO - Wikipedia

War Two USN shore-bombardment cruisers mounted 8" inch naval rifles in quad turrets. SELF LOADERS. The only "revolver" was the turret, entire. "Unattainable" was the other poor bastard's chance of survival.

Get yer brain in gear about metallurgy and shape of metals.

The basics of ONE chamber, integral with the barrel, NO gap, no alignment "clocking" - vs the dreadful shortcomings of antiques AKA "wheelguns" living off nostalgia.

Nostaligia ain't a BAD thing.

Just don't confuse it with physics.

I read a story of a couple guys out on the bay ice fishing and they saw a polar bear..quick thinkinh one would into town abd get a gun and the other would keep an eye on the bear. It took a good ten minuets to come back with a gun ...All he found was a red splot on the ice and no bear in sight.

Originally Posted by Scottl

All your word-salad BS about naval guns is just noise because the discussion was about something a person could CARRY in bear country.

Sorry about the "word salad", then. Let's cut to the bones of it:

You are simply one more damned fool arrogant about his ignorance as to what to "carry in bear country". Being pig stupid about metals, physics, and firearms is actually irrelevant, isn't it?

Chemical spray.
12 bore. SSG's "up".

Yah need to take a bird or a rabbit for the pot? Bypass a shell.
Do not unload the slugs.

Bear don't work on no Congressional lead-times, mailed-out advance warnings, nor make a lot of noise. Bear senses YOU long before the reverse. Stealth bomber is part of a Bear's wired-in arsenal of nutrition-gathering efficiency. Not often they die of starvation.

Or stay the f**k out of bear country. Statistics are dreadful enough in city squares without bugging Bears who never signed-on for the complexity of any of that confusing s**t.

Originally Posted by thermite

Sorry about the "word salad", then. Let's cut to the bones of it:

You are simply one more damned fool arrogant about his ignorance as to what to "carry in bear country". Being pig stupid about metals, physics, and firearms is actually irrelevant, isn't it?

Chemical spray.
12 bore. SSG's "up".

Yah need to take a bird or a rabbit for the pot? Bypass a shell.
Do not unload the slugs.

Bear don't work on no Congressional lead-times, mailed-out advance warnings, nor make a lot of noise. Bear senses YOU long before the reverse. Stealth bomber is part of a Bear's wired-in arsenal of nutrition-gathering efficiency. Not often they die of starvation.

Or stay the f**k out of bear country. Statistics are dreadful enough in city squares without bugging Bears who never signed-on for the complexity of any of that confusing s**t.

Agree on 12 gauge but not everyone who lives and works in bear country can carry one everywhere. Even with a sling it can get in the way of chores where a holstered sidearm is always available and quick to hand. The trouble with long guns is they tend to get leaned against trees and other convenient rests while working. With a holstered handgun you can still use a chainsaw, get in and out of a boat while carrying gear, set up a tent, ride an ATV or any of the other chores people do. Even hunters don't spend all the time out hunting and a bear in camp is just as likely as one out on a trail.

Originally Posted by Scottl

Agree on 12 gauge but not everyone who lives and works in bear country can carry one everywhere. Even with a sling it can get in the way of chores where a holstered sidearm is always available and quick to hand.

Make mine large initial mag capacity, neatly stowed inside, not "extended", add lanyard loop, ambidextrous release & safety, because *I* am. Also rock-solid reliable. The Star M50, actually. Horizontal underarm shoulder rig. @ 46 oz empty it barely pops up out of battery, treasury stance, "rapid".

Mass of ONE round is academic, especially if it misses vitals. Bears cheat! They don't sit still like targets on a range.

F**kers MOVE, and FAST enough to make yer bowels and bladder try to keep cadence! Mass of 13 rounds before mag swap & 12 more each go, is simply better odds. Grocery-store arithmetic. Cheaper, too.

...a bear in camp is just as likely as one out on a trail.

More so. Anywhere there is food or the prospect there MIGHT be. Bear is an eating machine.

Once the ALCAN "pioneer road" surveys, one each direction meant to meet got rolling, Dad, US Coast & Geodetic Survey vet before his civilian Corps of Engineers time pior to Pearl Harbour spies a massive thicket of wild berries. Army rations were drab as Hell, so in he goes gorging himself as fast as he can pick.

All of a sudden his "competitive shopper" stands up on hind legs from the other side of a patch of berries, looks DOWN at his five foot nine and simply gives a soft "woof". Like dog signaling the newspaper has just landed on the front porch or such type of soft "woof.

Brown Bear's gaze never wavers. Says nuthin' further. He has TOLD you, already, all he can be bothered to convey, YOUR job to action it, and f**k you if you weren't paying attention, he ain't up for wasting eating time repeating hisself.

Dad silently holds the gaze, one slow-moving backward step at a go until well-clear. Bear drops back down, goes back to harvesting his berries.

Summers are short, that part of the world.

Both parties had their priorities right. Dunno about the Bear, but Dad's visit. age 59 in '69, both the Inuit and Tlinkit guides off the 1942 project were still vertical and getting about OK nearly 30 years on.

One was walking all bow-legged, Mum asked it it was Ricketts as a kid.

He just laughed. "Oh no, Miz Hacker. We understand nutrition and Vitamins, get plenty of variety in our diet. Snowshoes, Missus. Snowshoes from age four, all my life." He was 90-something. Made another year or so. "First nations" native Americans don't ALL have alcohol problems nor lack the gumption to grab as much education as they can find!

Love the way an oil-patch-rich Osage Chief explained it to a magazine journalist:

"We Osage aren't LIKE other 'Indians". We have MONEY!"
"All those OTHER Indians have is their ass and a HAT!"

The OTHER "Indian" guide had handed an arrogant US Officer his own ass for a hat.

Project winding up, there was now a gravel road. Guide had been impressed with the "Jeep" figured once the war was over, he'd buy one, as it didn't need a huge pile of feed for winter as his horses did.

Lootenant scoffs. "You would need a lot of Beaver pelts to buy a Jeep!"

"Sell 'um beaver, Leftenant. Put $3,000 cash money in Bank in Seattle. Pay more than Vancouver bank."

Well, folks.. "interest" quite aside.. that calculates to $47,447.30 in 2020 dollars.

Humans. Always some as work harder and smarter than others, "tribe" notwithstanding.