Headspace in win 1894
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    Default Headspace in win 1894

    I have a Win 1894 30-30 made 1901,the primer is backing out about 0,5 mm when i shoot it or when i fire only a primer in a emty case any idea what to do?

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    Sounds like your receiver has set back. Easiest fix is if you handload, take a small o ring and place it in the extractor groove of the case to force the case back against the bolt then fire these rounds. When you go to resize them only do so enough to push the shoulder back about .003-.005 thousands.
    30-30 headspaces on the rim anyway. Then only load that brass with that rifle.
    This is a common fix for enfields with big headspace.

    Other options, which will kill the collector value of that gun are a new barrel with the headspace cut properly, or figuring out where the wear is on the locking blocks, bolt, or receiver and building up with Weld and re machining.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1886 View Post
    I have a Win 1894 30-30 made 1901,the primer is backing out about 0,5 mm when i shoot it or when i fire only a primer in a emty case any idea what to do?
    Factory ammo or hand loads?

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    Can someone help me understand this issue? I'm trying, but I'm not there yet.

    My understanding is that regardless of head space, the full load firing of a cartridge will drive the brass Back into the closed bolt face prior to expanding the cartridge body and "locking" the gas seal between the round and the chamber wall. If that sequence holds, It follows that "if all else is equal", the primer will remain "flattened" in the primer pocket flush with the cartridge base.

    Sequence:

    Hammer falls, pin is driven into the prime.
    Primer is driven fully into pocket, and then ignites.
    pressure builds, driving the primer out of the pocket somewhat, then driving the brass back onto the bolt face, re-seating the primer FLUSH with the cartridge base. Brass walls expand, (metal stretches) sealing the full power of the load.
    pressure falls, brass relaxes, releasing it's seal in the chamber
    extraction.

    If that sequence holds, headspace should not effect the resulting primer position. But, excessive head space could result in a blown base.
    Belted cartridges in other rounds are evidence of possible bad effects.

    Wouldn't the cartridge need to bounce off the bolt face between the time the primer lights, and the pressure builds enough to secure the cartridge in the chamber in order for the primer to remain proud? Or, wouldn't the load charge need to be so reduced that the brass is NOT pushed back against the bolt face during ignition? . primer only, or "cowboy companion" loads?

    Help where I've missed....

    TIA

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    If the gun has collectable value ,dont touch it ,or throw away many hundreds,at least....In fact the crazy increase in value of collectables ,valuation is advisable .......IMHO ,the 94 action is very likely worn from being operated with dust and dirt on thye working surfaces ,and to tighten headspace ,needs either the barrel set back a thread and rechambered ,or a new locking piece made oversize and the mortice matched to suit......both value killers........And as P O Ackley demonstrated ,a case grips the chamber tightly enough to be fired in an unlocked gun.

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    Quote Originally Posted by john.k View Post
    And as P O Ackley demonstrated ,a case grips the chamber tightly enough to be fired in an unlocked gun.
    A STRAIGHT wall case grips the chamber tightly enough to be fired in an unlocked gun. Not a 30-30.
    Read post #26
    Article posted on Precision Shooting Website about Ackley Improved cartridges - Page 2 - Shooters Forum

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    Quote Originally Posted by CalG View Post
    Can someone help me understand this issue? I'm trying, but I'm not there yet.

    My understanding is that regardless of head space, the full load firing of a cartridge will drive the brass Back into the closed bolt face prior to expanding the cartridge body and "locking" the gas seal between the round and the chamber wall. If that sequence holds, It follows that "if all else is equal", the primer will remain "flattened" in the primer pocket flush with the cartridge base.

    Sequence:

    Hammer falls, pin is driven into the prime.
    Primer is driven fully into pocket, and then ignites.
    pressure builds, driving the primer out of the pocket somewhat, then driving the brass back onto the bolt face, re-seating the primer FLUSH with the cartridge base. Brass walls expand, (metal stretches) sealing the full power of the load.
    pressure falls, brass relaxes, releasing it's seal in the chamber
    extraction.

    If that sequence holds, headspace should not effect the resulting primer position. But, excessive head space could result in a blown base.
    Belted cartridges in other rounds are evidence of possible bad effects.

    Wouldn't the cartridge need to bounce off the bolt face between the time the primer lights, and the pressure builds enough to secure the cartridge in the chamber in order for the primer to remain proud? Or, wouldn't the load charge need to be so reduced that the brass is NOT pushed back against the bolt face during ignition? . primer only, or "cowboy companion" loads?

    Help where I've missed....

    TIA
    I get what your saying, but for some reason with these tapered rimmed cartridges when the headspace gets big the primers back out. IDK if its because off case shape, lower pressure or what but this is a common problem on Enfields. A quick check with a set of headspace gauges will quickly tell him.
    The O ring trick I posted above is a easy fix, and has the added benefit of you brass lasting longer.

    Also notice the OP is in Sweden, Id imagine model 94 parts are scarce, especially for a pre 64

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    I had a .375 Win Contender (factory) barrel with the chamber cut too deep. It would back the primers out about 1.5 mm. I think the firing pin would push the cartridge forward before igniting the primer. Then the case would grip the chamber wall and the primer backed under the pressure. I just seated the bullets out to hold the cartridge in place through ignition and then the primers stayed flush with the back of the case.

    I don't think I'd fret too much over a primer backing out 0.5 mm.

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    Personally, I'd get a new barrel for it and save the old one if you want to sell it in the future. I gun, to me, is pretty worthless if it isn't shootable.

    FWIW,

    -Ron

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    Cheap fix is set the barrel back one thread,and rechamber .....even cheaper fix is to fill the rim rebate in the barrel with soft solder and recut the rim recess correct depth .........this works 100% ,I ve done it with Martini Enfields ,which had the rim recess made too deep by the arsenal ,for reasons of servicability.

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    A dirty chamber can cause to much friction on the brass to expand to pick up the primer after firing. Also with light loads the brass will not expand back to the face of the bolt. Remember 30-30 head space is registered of the rim not the shoulders.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1886 View Post
    I have a Win 1894 30-30 made 1901,the primer is backing out about 0,5 mm when i shoot it or when i fire only a primer in a emty case any idea what to do?
    The FIRST thing to do is check the head space with actual gauges. If it does have excess head space fit an oversize locking bolt and go shoot it. Wisners part #5094.005. Winchester 1894 Lever-Action (pre 64) | Wisner's Inc

    If the gun is in cherry condition save the original bolt for posterity. Setting a barrel back on a 94 is a major pain when you consider everything that is attached to it is now out of whack by at least .050".

    If the head space is good your issue/problem lies elsewhere.

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    Remember 30-30 head space is registered of the rim not the shoulder.

    While this is true, it can be headspaced on the shoulder if you are reloading, as mentioned in post #2 above. You only need the O-ring for the first shot which will blow the shoulder forward for a tight fit in the chamber as it exists. Then you need to adjust your sizing die to only set back the shoulder a little bit. From then on, you will be headspacing on the shoulder and the case will be held close to the bolt face.

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    Ok, looks like most don't know the Winchester Model 94. Lets start with the easiest and least invasive solution first. Winchester made oversize locking lugs for the Model 1894, I have seen them up to .015, they are stamped on the locking lug. They are factory produced and used by the factory to correct headspace on the M 94.

    Pull yours out, see it's marked, I prob have a few.

    Respectfully
    Mike Hunter
    Hunter Restorations.

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    1886, Sir
    At the risk of being labeled as a heretic.. The problem that you are having ( if it's really a problem) is endemic to alot of 94's. Personally I don't think you have a problem at all and I'd just shoot the gun with loads that it was meant to shoot. I was in the retail firearms industry for many years and I'd say a strong third of the 94's that I shot had this issue. News production ones, old ones, it didn't seem to matter. I think it's just a quirk that is inherent to the design. As far as 'fixes' I think if you must seek earthly perfection then look into Mr.Hunter's suggestion in post #14.
    For what it's worth here's what I think occurs.. Case is driven into the chamber by the firing pin, primer ignites and the relativity low pressure thin walled case expands and adheres to the chamber wall but does not have enough pressure to stretch the case back against the bolt face so the primer backs out. Not a big deal and nothing to fret about. No pressure damage to the case and no threat to the shooter or the gun, all is well.
    Hope this helps
    Stay safe
    Calvin B
    PS.. here's a little reading that you might fine comforting
    Thoughts on the Winchester Model 94 | A Tale of Two Thirties


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