Need help identifying projectile

jarhead jim · Dec 26, 2021

This is an old projectile an old guy in town used for a door stop for over 30 years. Until I noticed it was still LIVE! Anyhoo, does anyone have any info on what size it is or what gun it went to? It says FRANKFORD on one side of the bottom and APSF or APSE on the other. Weighs in at about 12 pounds. From the style of letters I'd guess WW1 or earlier. Measures 3.3" outside to outside on the copper drive ring and 3.125 on the outside to outside measurement of the projectile itself. 7-1/2" tall to base of brass fuse. And before anyone loses their mind, I've no intentions of messing with the fuse....

sagande · Dec 26, 2021

Here are a couple that have a similar look, from Google.

Looks like yours is missing the point of the fused section.

fused shell ww1 - Google Search

1 World War I Artillery Shell Time Fuse(trench art) A&F American version 1907M

fused shell ww1 - Google Search

If you suspect that it is a live round, I would recommend contacting the authorities, as it appears to be an anti-personnel (shrapnel filled) round.

Not that the type of round will make any difference, if it happened to go off!

Looks like any interesting find!

Merry Christmas, and a Happy and Safe New Year to you!

kendog · Dec 26, 2021

I recall a story from my youth where a couple of boys were killed playing with a German 88 round that Gramps or Dad brought back from WW2. Maybe 1968 or there about, downtown Campbell CA. They banged it on the stone bench and it exploded. I aint no nanny, but maybe you cant be too careful with this kind of stuff.

jarhead jim · Dec 26, 2021

kendog said:
I recall a story from my youth where a couple of boys were killed playing with a German 88 round that Gramps or Dad brought back from WW2. Maybe 1968 or there about, downtown Campbell CA. They banged it on the stone bench and it exploded. I aint no nanny, but maybe you cant be too careful with this kind of stuff.

You have to treat it with respect for damn sure.

Jim

jarhead jim · Dec 26, 2021

sagande said:
Here are a couple that have a similar look, from Google.

Looks like yours is missing the point of the fused section.

fused shell ww1 - Google Search

1 World War I Artillery Shell Time Fuse(trench art) A&F American version 1907M

fused shell ww1 - Google Search

If you suspect that it is a live round, I would recommend contacting the authorities, as it appears to be an anti-personnel (shrapnel filled) round.

Not that the type of round will make any difference, if it happened to go off!

Looks like any interesting find!

Merry Christmas, and a Happy and Safe New Year to you!

Thanks! Merry Xmas to you too!! I see a lot of similarities in some of those rounds.

Jim

mhajicek · Dec 26, 2021

I'm not an antique munitions expert by any stretch, but by the rifling imprints on the ring and the damage to the nose, it looks like it was fired, perhaps into dirt, and didn't detonate.

jarhead jim · Dec 26, 2021

mhajicek said:
I'm not an antique munitions expert by any stretch, but by the rifling imprints on the ring and the damage to the nose, it looks like it was fired, perhaps into dirt, and didn't detonate.

I'm positive it did too.

Jim

sealark37 · Dec 26, 2021

Do yourself and your family a favor. Notify the local law. They will most likely have EOD destroy the projectile. Better they do than it detonates in your possession. Fired artillery projectiles are by no means stable or inert.

trevj · Dec 27, 2021

If you can find a guy to xray the bullet (shell?) it may just be target practice round that was never any danger to anyone other than the guy holding the target up.

An awful pile of them are around, and any time EOD gets called out, it turns in to a "What about the Children!" event, mostly for no good reason.

Not that some live stuff has not made it home, but most of the guys hauling that stuff back to their wives and kids, had at least some idea what they had!

In any case, I figure any clockwork inside there, is long since past any level of functioning. Not to say it could not be explosives in there, just to say you gonna have to kick it awful hard to get it to be a danger. Like, be in another bomb's blast radius, hard.

And no, I would not throw it on the camp fire, or in the wood stove. Just sayin'!

These days, color codes by what paint you find on the remains, means a lot. WW1 era, some, but not as much!

Don. · Dec 27, 2021

jarhead jim said:
This is an old projectile an old guy in town used for a door stop for over 30 years. Until I noticed it was still LIVE! Anyhoo, does anyone have any info on what size it is or what gun it went to? It says FRANKFORD on one side of the bottom and APSF or APSE on the other. Weighs in at about 12 pounds. From the style of letters I'd guess WW1 or earlier. Measures 3.3" outside to outside on the copper drive ring and 3.125 on the outside to outside measurement of the projectile itself. 7-1/2" tall to base of brass fuse. And before anyone loses their mind, I've no intentions of messing with the fuse....View attachment 337919 View attachment 337920 View attachment 337921 View attachment 337922

Soak it in some Possum Slobber, launch it out of the bowling ball mortar and then let dave have a threesome with it and a goat...that'll make it safe! :cheers:

michiganbuck · Dec 27, 2021

When we were kids we found a plastic nose point filled with liquid and fine screw threads in the side of an ammo hut at a retired AC Ac site.
We had a close-by neighbor call the cops..and in about 15 minutes an Army green Ford
came the guys in uniform who carefully placed it into a wood box saying it is just a blank, nothing to worry about.

FredC · Dec 27, 2021

Some random info. The US had a Frankford arsenal. My dad told me about arming ordinance in Korea. They retapped each bomb before screwing the fuse in. If the fuse hung up while threading it in, it would detonate if you tried to screw it out. Seems like the stuff nightmares are made of. Reversing direction is so intuitive if you hit something while turning a screw.

Cooking it in a fire out in the desert sounds like a plan to me, if you want to keep it. Put it in a pile of wood start it and get a long way from it fast and do not come back to get it till it is stone cold. You would either find inert ordinance or a crater when you go back. And this advice cost you nothing and is probably worth less than 2 cents.

Sure would not want to be called to put out a campfire and have it explode. I remember being called out to a truck fire and did not see the acetaline and oxygen tanks till we had gotten the flames and black smoke knocked down. Talked to the truck's owner afterwards and he told dispatch that it was welding truck carrying both types of tanks. Dispatch did not tell us that!!!

M.B. Naegle · Dec 27, 2021

I can understand the draw to keep and collect stuff like this, but it's not something I would just have out waiting for a cat to knock it over. Keep it in a gun safe to be pulled out as a conversational piece. It's not a question of how careful you are or how well trained the kids are, it's the things you don't plan on happening that make stuff like this dangerous. IMO the most ideal situation would be for it to go towards a historical display that's curated by people who know what they're handling. Having the authorities destroy it of course is the safest route, but kind of a sad destination for a piece of history.

FredC · Dec 27, 2021

M.B. Naegle said:
I can understand the draw to keep and collect stuff like this, but it's not something I would just have out waiting for a cat to knock it over. Keep it in a gun safe to be pulled out as a conversational piece. It's not a question of how careful you are or how well trained the kids are, it's the things you don't plan on happening that make stuff like this dangerous. IMO the most ideal situation would be for it to go towards a historical display that's curated by people who know what they're handling. Having the authorities destroy it of course is the safest route, but kind of a sad destination for a piece of history.

Yeah, a safer plan would be to build an authentic looking mockup and give the original to the bomb squad for practice. We is machinists after all.

jarhead jim · Dec 27, 2021

Don. said:
Soak it in some Possum Slobber, launch it out of the bowling ball mortar and then let dave have a threesome with it and a goat...that'll make it safe!

Only if I get to film it! LMFAO!

Jim

michiganbuck · Dec 27, 2021

There was a newspaper story of a fellow who netted a 500-pound bomb, brought it into New York, and took a photo of his child setting on it.
Can't remember what trouble he got into but it was a big deal the police and a bomb squad came to retrieve the bomb.

I was fishing in a nice bay near Pensacola Florida and wondered why I was the only boat in that nice bay.
When I checked the chart I found warning unexploded bombs Keep out.

Cannonmn · Dec 27, 2021

michiganbuck said:
There was a newspaper story of a fellow who netted a 500-pound bomb, brought it into New York, and took a photo of his child setting on it.
Can't remember what trouble he got into but it was a big deal the police and a bomb squad came to retrieve the bomb.

I was fishing in a nice bay near Pensacola Florida and wondered why I was the only boat in that nice bay.
When I checked the chart I found warning unexploded bombs Keep out.

I believe this to be a U.S. Army 3.2-inch projectile from the 1890’s, made for use in the Army-standard 3.2-inch field gun. I think the base reads “FRANKFORD. Test.” It is probably an inert round made for firing tests, but you don’t want to assume it is inert. COL John Biemeck, USA ret. in VA is the “go to” guy for this stuff.

You could pay a professional who disarms Civil War projectiles, to drill with a water stream on the drill. If live The explosive filler was black powder, so the CW demil guys can do it. Yes it was fired.

Drawings (cross-section type) should be contained in the REPORTS OF THE CHIEF OF ORDNANCE TO THE SECRETARY OF WAR”’ca. 1890, the reports were issued annually and a few are on Google Books.

cyanidekid · Dec 27, 2021

it certainly seems to be fired and probably inert, but exactly WHY would you bet your life (or your kid's, or someone else's life) on that?
I'd think if EOD wrapped the business end of that with detcord and set it off, it would still be a hunk of metal with a hole in the end if it were inert, and there would be no further debate or speculation.
if its 1890, it certainly could be HE and not black powder, and its just not worth F'in with. I don't know who would actually drill into that in their right mind!

duckfarmer27 · Dec 27, 2021

I'm not an expert on this shell. However, I started my Army life as an Ordnance officer trained in armament repair then spent over 30 years in the reserve components mainly as a combat engineer. I'm guessing Cannonmn was a 'cannon cocker' or 'gun bunny' at some point in his life.

Taking his suggestion as to the weapon he suspects fired it I found the Handbook for the 3.2 Inch Field Battery. You can find it at Handbook of the 3.2-inch Field Battery, with Instructions for Its Care, July ... : United States Army. Ordnance Dept, Ordnance Dept, Army, United States : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Do yourself a favor and look at page 57 of that manual. Hard to tell without measurements or different pictures but your shell looks very much like the Frankford Arsenal shrapnel shell that is shown and described. Your shell has been fired based on the condition of the rotating band and the fuse well looks to have impacted.

I've placed my share of demolitions, trained people and been around some good sized blows - as well as all kinds of live firing. I've had final command sign off on live fire training. These devices are not toys nor playthings. You do not know exactly what you have. Some of us have suspicions as to what it is, but all of these are only an educated guess. I implore you - please call your local authorities and get rid of that thing if you value the lives of the people around you.

I have always been thankful I never lost a soldier in training. I really don't want to hear of an 'old relic shell' going off in Bartley, NE.

Dale

FredC · Dec 28, 2021

duckfarmer27 said:
I implore you - please call your local authorities and get rid of that thing if you value the lives of the people around you.

I have always been thankful I never lost a soldier in training. I really don't want to hear of an 'old relic shell' going off in Bartley, NE.

Dale

Sounds like expert advice. Seems like whatever authority ends up with this thing, will cook it off or something to get rid of it. If it turns out to be inert any chance of JJ getting it back to safely put on the shelf?

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