need help with pin fire revolver

i need a little help on finding out what i really have here. i bought this gun around 40 years ago from a guy that was well into his eighty's at my gun club. he told me then it was a french teat fire but a local gun store told me it was a pin fire. the hex barrell has some rifling in it and the bore measures .204-.205 barrell length 2.170 the only markings on it are on the barrell it has a (z) and (star) symble and on the cylender it has (e) (l) (c) (star) . its got a 6 shot cylender stamped with (6) on it. folding trigger with a push rod for the empty cartridges. all the screws on the gun are fillister head style. there are some problems with the indexing of the cylender when you cock the hammer back. so my question is DO I HAVE SOMETHING HERE OR NOT as far as value goes. going to try to post pictures. thanks for any help. kenny
rumford supply & machinery company
[email protected]

It looks like a Belgian pin fire pocket pistol of 1850-1870 vintage. They were very common in Europe and brought back by GIs of both World Wars. The values I have seen at shows for this type have been in the $150-$300 range. Yours is in great condition but with the problem with the action would be in the middle of the range.
Chuck

Pin fire and teat fire refer to the same type of system.

A pin protruded from the rim of the shell to connect the hammer to a precussion cap imbeded in the core of the shells head.

Basicly the fireing pin was part of the shell rather than the hammer.
The system was developed about the same time as center fire and rim fire shells.
It probably failed becasue it is very hard to adapt to repeating arms and offers little or no benefit over the other systems.

Ammo is effectively unobtainable. -
Its roughly a 5mm or just under 22 cal.
In the era this gun was made the shells would have been loaded with black power or just a cap and ball, with no powder. That configuration was popular for indoor gallery shooting.
Smokeless powder was not invented until the 1880's. Black powder and smokeless shells were sold side by side for many years after that.

It would be highly unadvseable to modify it to use modern 22 cal rimfire shells. The gun was never intened to handle the pressures of moder ammo. In fact its manufacturers would probably be astounded by the pressures we operate at today.

Repair parts will have to be hand made. The cost will probably excede the value of the gun, and not add enought to the value to justify it.

A careful study of the marks on the gun could reveal its country of origin and roughly when it was made. The marks (stars, e's, etc) all sound like belgin proof marks. They changed over time so if you can find a table of proof marks and when they were used, you can bracket the guns age, and where it was proofed (final testing prior to sale).

Value,
I think Chuck is about right -not much unless you can document something about it that makes it special (owned by a famous person for example). This type of gun just does not have a good collectors following and little information is available on them. The lack of ammo also kills off shooter interst. What you have is something that looks cool on the wall and is intersting to handle as an example of how far firearm design has come. Basicly decarator value. Take care of it. Show it to the grand kids, but dont plan to send the to college on in. It wont even by the text books.

Legal,
The gun uses obsolete ammo and was almost certanly made long enough ago its an antique (1890 something and before are antiques), not a firearm. Even if you cant prove its antiuque, the type of ammo should make it a curio or rellic. These destinctions meen a lot with regards to legaly transfering the gun under federal law. State laws vary.

Teat fire ammo and pinfire ammo are not the same. Teatfire cartridges had a teat, similar to the teat on a cow's udder (hence the name) and were integral to the case much like a rimfire cartridge is (one piece of formed brass or copper). These were designed especially to circumvent the Rollin White patent of bored through cylinders owned by Smith and Wesson. The teat fire cartridges were loaded from the front of the cylinder with the teat protruding into a location so that it could be struck by the hammer. Pinfires had a separate pin that passed through a hole in the side of the case and rested on the priming compound. The hammer struck the pin and ignited the round. Pinfires were also available in many calibers, including shotshells and were quite popular in Europe as referenced previously. Larger caliber pinfire revolvers 11mm or so made in France or Belgium were sought after by Civil War combatants and some are worth some respectable amounts of money.
Any firearm manufactured before 1899 is not considered a firearm by the ATF and therefore not regulated - makes no difference on the availability of ammunition. Curios and relics include any firearm that is 50 years old or older basically, with some exceptions such as commemoratives and other firearms that may have significant historical or monetary value.
If the cylinder is not rotating when the hammer is cocked, it may something as simple as a hand spring. Try pointing the revolver at the floor and cocking it. If the cylinder rotates then, it is probably the hand spring.

thanks for you boys who replied. very interesting. i wondered who built this gun with no name on it??? were they built by a gun manufacturer and who were they built for (anybody) (armed forces) ??? the craftsmenship in it is just great. thanks again boys. kenny

I consider this a display gun only but it might be possible to make it fire 209 shotgun primers as a noise maker for starting races or for use on stage as a prop.

On second thought just put it away for some historian to discover in the future would be my suggestion.

revolver.pin fire.springs replacment in a belguim 8mm.1880

old antque revoler.im trying replacing springs in revoler a small belguim 1880 8mm pin fire.any tips and help.thank you .faithfully.bobby,r.w.pountney.

Belgian Pin Fire

Belgian Proofed (z *, ELG etc.) Made in Liege, Belgium, by one of many
"Trade-Gun" makers, or sindicat of makers ( group of gunmakers who pooled their resources) .
Trade Guns for the Popular end of the civilian market, usually unmarked as to maker, and sold for a few francs. Ie, the European equivalent of the "Saturday night special," but with this difference...they were very well made, and Proofed officially for their cartridge. A Lot of trade Guns were exported to dealers in Britain, and carry British Proofs as well, and IDs of British retailers.

Made from the 1850s to 1880s, when Pinfires were finally overtaken by both Rimfire and Centre fire Pistols...in fact a lot of the 1850-1870 Military Pinfires ( usu.11-12 mm) were converted officially to Centre-Fire ( example, the Swedish M1860 Lefaucheaux Pinfire (11mm) converted in 1874 to the French 11mm Centre fire cartridge, by the Svenska Arsenalet ( later the Carl Gustav GevarFabrik).

The Folding Trigger Model was popular with Ladies (Purse or Winter ************) and also for Business-men ( Waistcoat Pocket or Coat Pocket).

A 5,5mm calibre (.22) Pin Fire was basically a "Velo" gun ( for Bicyclists) for discouraging Dogs etc...this calibre eventually developed into the Rimfire Velodog and the Centre-fire Velodog ( also 5,5/5,6 cal.).

Interesting Piece. Value? whatever the Buyer is willing to pay...Part of the History of Gun Development. Check out "Zhuk" for possible makers.

Regards,
Doc AV

I have a similar one, with conventional trigger, that my mom gave me for Christmas some time in the 1960's. At that time I think it cost something around 40 bucks at some New York arms dealer, and was free of the usual red tape because with no firing pin of its own and no available ammo it was considered a non-working antique. Mine also has the Belgian proof mark and no other ID. It's very nicely finished, but the trigger doesn't return properly. I can't imagine trying to shoot anything but blanks in this thing with its huge bore and no safety, but it's a nice shelf decoration and a good stage and photo prop, since it's harmless.

As I recall, you could still get ammo for these from Sears around the turn of the last century. It's conventionally called "French Pin Fire."

Perhaps you mean the turn of the 19th century. The turn of the last century was only 11 years ago and there was no pinfire ammo available from Sears, and very likely any where else. Does Sears still firearms and ammo? None of them around here do.

The mistake most people make is not photographing proof makes. That's what tells those in the know what it is. But from what you have given its probably an old Jansen-Lefaucheux pin fire, Jansen of Belgium being the gun maker and Lefaucheux being the style of firearm. It bears the ELG * in an oval which is a british black powder proof valid from 1811-1892 and should also be proved "II with a backwards p". Which would put manufacture around 1860. It may also have Acier Fundu stamped on the left side of the barrel or under the barrel. In the condition you have they generally trade between $600 and $1,200. Its very rare that guns of this type would have any owner notoriety behind them so condition and extras like engraving are everything in setting a value.

You can still find new Pinfire ammo.
Here is a link to one of the sources.
http://www.hc-collection.com/PBCPPlayer.asp?ID=245439
You can readily reload fired pinfire cases.
Mr SNS

Here is a french website that shows a way of reloading pinfire..

They are selling kits, but I'm sure any competant home machinist could do as well...

Reloading kit for pinfire cartridge - revive your vintage Lefaucheux revolvers- H.L. Publishing

Felix said:

Here is a french website that shows a way of reloading pinfire..

They are selling kits, but I'm sure any competant home machinist could do as well...

Reloading kit for pinfire cartridge - revive your vintage Lefaucheux revolvers- H.L. Publishing

Click to expand...

Thank you for posting this Felix. I've had a 7 mm pinfire revolver since I was a kid that has been silent for at least a century, I got it from my grandparents about 60 years ago. This is just the push needed to make it come to life once again after a little shop time.

Be careful how you carry pinfire ammo. That protruding pin is too easy to set off the primer if you carry it in your pocket. It is resting on an internal primer. That is a major defect with this ammo.

Imagine trying a fast reload of your revolver with this ammo.

It resides in and belongs in the dustbin of history.

Speerchucker, it never occurred to me to look for any markings on my boyhood no ammo plaything which was put away decades ago. Dug it out, it's still heavily engraved everywhere, and damn! Sure enough there's more than engraving on it. Don't care if it's worthless, thanks for the education.

Hello,I have an early 1960's xythos pin fire revolver. It's in brand new condition. Unfortunately the first time fee front it the soft that holds taking on the trigger and hammer popped out. Thankfully I found the spring, but I have no idea how it goes back in as I can't find anyone that works on them. Does anyone know where I could get it repaired ? I can't even find an exploded diagram showing how it fits in. If anyone can point me in the right direction I would really appreciate it.
Thank you
jcom4179

check muzzle loading forum, there is two, one for old muzzleloader guns and one for in line muzzle loaders, vast amounts of knowledge

there was a pin fire rifle black powder at auction I bid on when it went sky high in price I gave up

don't think for a minute yours is not worth much, check it out