Need welding tips for Rem 700 recoil lug - Page 3
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  1. #41
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    Although I realize that this was directed to Quick Karl, I would like to respond...


    Quote Originally Posted by Mram10 View Post
    What’s your definition of a “significant gunsmith”?
    A “significant gunsmith” would be a gunsmith who has built rifles that have won sanctioned events as opposed to "club" events. I have won "club events" with rifles I've built but I am NOT a “significant gunsmith”.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mram10 View Post
    Do you build rifles or do tig welding?
    I have designed and built rifles from "blank paper" to finished product for my own use. I DO TIG, MIG and stick weld. I've managed to get bolt handles stuck together and looking good... But I do NOT consider myself particularly skilled. However, I DO have a good handle on the effects of welding. Not only on the joint, but also on the surrounding metal. Anyone who does not have this knowledge should not be trying to weld in the first place!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mram10 View Post
    Do you consider the area over 1/2” away from the abatements (receiver face) critical?
    Only if you would like the barrel to remain attached to the receiver... Depending on how much heat is applied during welding and what method is used to protect the surrounding metal the lug abutments could well be effected as well. And YES the lug abutments are VERY CRITICAL! Every bit as important as the bolt lugs!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mram10 View Post
    Do you think some spot welds on the receiver face would have significant effects on the threads or abatements?
    I don't "think" welding on the receiver face would effect the threads. I "KNOW" it would. The only question is to what degree. That would be a function of how much heat was applied during the welding process. So the question of how significant the effects is one that can not be known until after the damage is done. AND LET ME BE CLEAR, it can do nothing but damage!!!

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mram10 View Post
    How large of an area would a spot weld at 3 and 9 effect?
    Is it possible to true the face of th lug once attached?
    Have you welded a lug to an action before?

    I know the answers and they are obvious. If you haven’t welded a lug to an action, thus lacking the experience I am asking for, please refrain.
    Well there you go. You're not often right, but you're wrong this time.

    This is not my first rodeo. I talk from a point of experience in welding where the result has to be certified, and as a past manufacturer of long range target rifles on a commercial scale. I've had a fair amount of experience with welding actions. Early Grunig and Elmiger 300M target rifles, although the recoil lug was not welded on, had a rather large boss welded to the underside of a cylindrical action.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mram10 View Post
    What’s your definition of a “significant gunsmith”?
    Do you build rifles or do tig welding?
    Do you consider the area over 1/2” away from the abatements (receiver face) critical?
    Do you think some spot welds on the receiver face would have significant effects on the threads or abatements?
    I think you should try it and post the results. By all means - MIG weld it.

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  5. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quick Karl View Post
    I think you should try it and post the results. By all means - MIG weld it.
    Please see previous comment:

    " (with the possible addendum of
    'unless you are prepared to destroy the thing you started with, and then build a new one
    from scratch and then do it right the second time aka learning the hard way. Which is
    time consuming but you sure learn a lot) "

    Seriously. No amount of internet discussion can take the place of doing it yourself and seeing what happens.
    Honestly I am one of the major contributors to the "ben franklin school of hard knocks', learning.

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  7. #45
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    Mil,
    There are guys at AS forum that do less than 100ftlb.
    As for pre-heat, I have no problems with that. I still don’t see how a couple tack welds would distort the receiver, which would be trued after anyway.
    I’m sure that book has plenty of good content, however, numerous engineering sources will have the needed info.

    Again, I am after techniques how to do it by those with experience, not personal preferences or beliefs. It can be safely done

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    Angel,
    Expand on how I’m “wrong this time”.
    Was a lot of heat generated when welding those actions?
    Were they spot welded?
    Was the entire boss welded?
    Were they preheated then slowly cooled after?

  9. #47
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    Mil,
    You’re stating a lot of things that are fine, but have no bearing on my situation.
    Sure, people that don’t understand welding shouldn’t do it, but you don’t know my background. I get welding, just not all aspects which is why I would like tips on receivers. Luckily I have a friend that understands welding very well and has been doing it for 50+ years. Even uses some modern equipment
    Sure, it will effect the threads, but how much if preheated, slowly cooled and quickly spot welded generating little heat??
    It can be done, so I wish people that haven’t done it would sit back with popcorn instead of adding their “2 cents”.
    My definition on gunsmiths is a bit different. Significant to me means they know how to build accurate rifles without all the voodoo associated.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mram10 View Post
    Again, I am after techniques how to do it by those with experience, not personal preferences or beliefs. It can be safely done
    You are getting advice by those with experience, it is just not what you want to hear. Also you will likely not find advise on how to MIG weld on rifle receivers outside of Bubba's home gun plumber blog.

    Or this guy:
    DIY: Shovel AK - photo tsunami warning! | Northeastshooters.com Forums

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  12. #49
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    Threads like this are why I quit internet gunsmith forums - and lots of other people did too...

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  14. #50
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    You quit the 24hr Campfire forum also I guess after your post on the 458Lott.

  15. #51
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    For the same reasons.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mram10 View Post
    Mil,
    There are guys at AS forum that do less than 100ftlb.
    There are guys who eat Tide Pods and snort condoms... A "hand tightened" barrel falls in the SAME category!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mram10 View Post
    As for pre-heat, I have no problems with that. I still don’t see how a couple tack welds would distort the receiver, which would be trued after anyway.
    I don't recall ANYONE here suggesting that a couple tack weld would warp a receiver. Many if not all HAVE suggested that a couple tack welds MAY crack a receiver! If what you are looking for is validation of YOUR methods, I think it is unlikely you will find that here. You are much more likely to get validation on some other sites. You may also find a few who have eaten Tide Pods or snorted condoms... It's up to you who's advice to take.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mram10 View Post
    I’m sure that book has plenty of good content, however, numerous engineering sources will have the needed info.
    In truth... There is DATA in that book that I have seen NOWHERE else. I'll take data over anecdote EVERY DAY! Which do you choose?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mram10 View Post
    Again, I am after techniques how to do it by those with experience, not personal preferences or beliefs. It can be safely done
    Many of the more experienced will not do what you propose. They HAVE done it in the past but sooner or later they get one that cracks. In the end it is not worth it to weld on heat treated steel. 4140 should be welded in the annealed state, normalized THEN heat treated. END OF STORY! Can it be done? Sure!!! And you can eat Tide Pods too but I don't make a habit of recommending that either.

  17. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mram10 View Post
    Mil,
    You’re stating a lot of things that are fine, but have no bearing on my situation.
    I have responded ONLY to your comments. If some of my replies "have no bearing", perhaps you should stay on topic?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mram10 View Post
    Sure, people that don’t understand welding shouldn’t do it, but you don’t know my background. I get welding, just not all aspects which is why I would like tips on receivers.
    Obviously you DO NOT understand welding as well as you think you do... I make no assumptions about your background beyond that you are not a welder or materials engineer. That, my friend is as clear as Waterford crystal!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mram10 View Post
    Luckily I have a friend that understands welding very well and has been doing it for 50+ years. Even uses some modern equipment
    If you have a friend who knows what he's doing why are you asking here? Ask him! I've only been welding for 30 some years... I'm not good enough to weld heat treated steel...

    Quote Originally Posted by Mram10 View Post
    Sure, it will effect the threads, but how much if preheated, slowly cooled and quickly spot welded generating little heat??
    IF you understood welding as well as you think you do, you would understand that no one here can answer that question for you. For the weld to be "PROPERLY" done the temperature at which the steel was tempered would have to be known. Then, how much heat is added as a result of welding and where would have to be known. The first is something that can not be known to any degree of certainty. the skill of the person performing the weld and the quality of the equipment very!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mram10 View Post
    It can be done, so I wish people that haven’t done it would sit back with popcorn instead of adding their “2 cents”.
    Sure it can be done. And many have eaten Tide Pods too. Doesn't mean it's advisable!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mram10 View Post
    My definition on gunsmiths is a bit different. Significant to me means they know how to build accurate rifles without all the voodoo associated.
    I have built from "blank paper" to finished rifle, a few rifles that would meet your definition. So have others here who have offered yo advice. If you are not willing or able to take the advice of "Significant gunsmiths" here, I would recommend you seek the answer you are looking for elsewhere. Few here are going to change their mind to suite your wishes.

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  19. #54
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    Don’t need your validation, thanks. Looking for advice from people that HAVE done it, not those that don’t think it’s a good idea.

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    What about from those that know it is not a good idea.

    Aircraft frames made from 4130 are welded all the time. The tubing is not hardened and still the welds are coole slowl to normalize the joint to prevent cracking. A very few are heat treated afterwart to increase strength. Laser welding might work for your purpose, but would require very expensive equipment that is not readily available and would require testing on several rifles before it could be trusted. That testing to include sectioning the welded receiver\lug and checking grain structure and hardness throughout the area affected.

    If you insist on tig welding the lug, be prepared to lose a few actions to warping and\or cracking. Preheating the action to about 450 degrees and slowly cooling after welding would minimize cracking tendancies but would risk softening the lug abutments and distorting the threads.

  21. #56
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    Laser welding is still melting the material, and leaving the hard quench from the surrounding material.

    Pre-heat to 450, or even more, won't affect the original heat treat, as that was likely 1000 deg temper, plus minus. I'm too lazy to look it up.

    Warpage, maybe, from cooling and shrinking of the welds. If they don't crack.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wesg View Post
    Laser welding is still melting the material, and leaving the hard quench from the surrounding material.

    Pre-heat to 450, or even more, won't affect the original heat treat, as that was likely 1000 deg temper, plus minus. I'm too lazy to look it up.

    Warpage, maybe, from cooling and shrinking of the welds. If they don't crack.
    Good info. Thanks

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    problem is welds can crack or get harder then woodpecker lips.
    and who really knows what Remington uses for the receiver.

    it's a mater of the proper way to weld on such steel messes up the heat treat of the receiver
    and welding moves stuff around.

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    40 years ago, guy I met in Mt View did some welding on Mausers and such. All TIG, little bit and let cool. Mostly filling pits and repairing Bubba'd scope mount holes.

    This guy made the most beautiful octagon barrels I've ever seen. Integral quarter to full ribs, and sling swivels, tulip breeches surface ground into the radius.

    I asked him the 'trick' to avoiding an undercut, and he told to go and figure it out myself. The guy that introduced me to him told me he disconnected the table drive and hand fed the table into the wheel. I haven't a clue ...

    He had a .458 featherweight barrel he'd done for someone, who changed his mind. He offered to sell me for the price of the Douglas blank ... about $125 bucks then. One of my greatest regrets not taking advantage of that, regardless of having any use of it, for the 'art' and inspiration I'd get from looking at it.

    He also made hinged floorplates, CNC milled, for a couple different actions.

    Some years later I referred my brother-in-laws father to him, and he told me the reply he got was 'I don't do that anymore. Got tired of working for $.50 an hour. I kinda like to eat.'

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    Quote Originally Posted by wesg View Post
    40 years ago, guy I met in Mt View did some welding on Mausers and such. All TIG, little bit and let cool. Mostly filling pits and repairing Bubba'd scope mount holes.

    This guy made the most beautiful octagon barrels I've ever seen. Integral quarter to full ribs, and sling swivels, tulip breeches surface ground into the radius.

    I asked him the 'trick' to avoiding an undercut, and he told to go and figure it out myself. The guy that introduced me to him told me he disconnected the table drive and hand fed the table into the wheel. I haven't a clue ...

    He had a .458 featherweight barrel he'd done for someone, who changed his mind. He offered to sell me for the price of the Douglas blank ... about $125 bucks then. One of my greatest regrets not taking advantage of that, regardless of having any use of it, for the 'art' and inspiration I'd get from looking at it.

    He also made hinged floorplates, CNC milled, for a couple different actions.

    Some years later I referred my brother-in-laws father to him, and he told me the reply he got was 'I don't do that anymore. Got tired of working for $.50 an hour. I kinda like to eat.'
    A shame he quit. That is definitely an art form


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