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Oval shot patterns

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Diamond
Joined
Nov 1, 2004
Location
Webster Groves, MO
Watching a Civil War program on TV, it occurred to me that cannons firing grape shot would be more effective if the pattern fanned horizontally and narrowed vertically, not that the Civil War needed canons to be more effective. Could you narrow the bore vertically like a choke and widen it horizontally? Has anyone tried it?

Bill
 
Well, there would be a current application for such a pattern. Think of duck / goose hunting. Most birds are flying horizontally, so the trick is to take a round shot gun barrel and mash it sort of flat from the top, spreading the sides of the tube.

Try this on kickstarter as see how many investors you can find.
 
It was tried for shotguns, but cannon needed to fire other projectiles than grapeshot. A round cannon ball needs a round barrel to fly straight.
 
It would take a special cannon, but my question was more one of would it work at all rather than about a specific firearm. Did it work?

Bill
 
Wouldn't doubt that the vertical nature of the pattern was related to the kickback lifting the nose of the barrel than anything else. Would have to encase the whole cannon in a huge cement block to stop that from happening to see if that fixed it.

I forget is grape shot packed loose between wadding (like a black powder shotgun or Blunderbuss) or is more of a sabot/canister round, where the voids are filled and the sabot/canister separates as it leaves the barrel?
 
There were naval swivel guns with rectangular muzzles. One example I saw a photo of years ago was named "The Murderer" because of the effect it had on enemy crews.

One reason I don't think you'll see anything like a duckbill choke for bird hunting is because there are just as many shots where a vertical spread would be more useful. AFAIK the main usefulness was always against multiple human opponents in close range situations such as heavy jungle foliage or inside a building.
 
There were naval swivel guns with rectangular muzzles. One example I saw a photo of years ago was named "The Murderer" because of the effect it had on enemy crews.

One reason I don't think you'll see anything like a duckbill choke for bird hunting is because there are just as many shots where a vertical spread would be more useful. AFAIK the main usefulness was always against multiple human opponents in close range situations such as heavy jungle foliage or inside a building.

True, game requires a rising lead as often as an azimuth one. Anyway, I got an answer to my question, very educational but I don't think I will be mashing the barrels on my FN Browning O/U in a press any time soon.

Bill
 
I forget is grape shot packed loose between wadding (like a black powder shotgun or Blunderbuss) or is more of a sabot/canister round, where the voids are filled and the sabot/canister separates as it leaves the barrel?

Packed on a wooden base sabot with a central pole for grasping to load. Resembled a cheap paper-towel dispenser. Shot was then held to a diameter with a sleeve sorta like chicken wire.

Otherwise, it would not fit the bore or would take a whole bunch of people to load it into the cannon like a family picking berries and they'd never get the shot fired before the gun bunnies were sabered to death by those who were a tad anal as to opposing the receiving of metals they had not placed a PO for.

Side note: The notorious "Charge of the Light Brigade?" Due to a miscommunication, they were ordered down the length of a long valley instead of towards enemy guns directly across the short span ahead of them.

Lost in the horror over the losses they suffered, is the hard fact that they succeeded, reached the "wrong " guns, over-ran them, outright slaughtered the gunners, then rode back, shattered again, but victorious ANYWAY!

When an artilleryman was loading grape shot, he was one desperate gunner, the body odour of many enemy bent on gutting him already within his nostrils. It was useless at much more than pitched rocks range.
 
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Actually, true "grape shot" was used in few relatively modern battles and primarily for harder targets; the shot were large and there weren't very many.) Canister (a tin can filled with musket balls which was effective at relatively short range) and Shrapnell (a shell casing filled with musket balls and a time fuse fired bursting charge for use at longer range) were the preferred anti-personell rounds. Many more shot and wider spread while still engaging many of the enemy.
 
Many years ago I read of fanned cones that attached to the spitting end of a shotgun barrel. The shape was more like an oval that was flat on top and bottom. Seemed to work as advertised (including much cone erosion) according to the article. Think article appeared in Shotgun Digest in the late 60s early 70s. Don't know how it would work on something as big as a cannon.
 
For dove hunting where I think most birds are shot flying parallel to the ground, what about using a screw in full choke and EDMing or grinding the ID an oval shape with the extreme ends of the oval machined to a cylinder dimension?
This would eliminate the ruining of a good barrel, leave the shotgun with a good appearance and easily repaired if the idea is no good and be easily tweaked if the idea shows merit.
 
For dove hunting where I think most birds are shot flying parallel to the ground, what about using a screw in full choke and EDMing or grinding the ID an oval shape with the extreme ends of the oval machined to a cylinder dimension?
This would eliminate the ruining of a good barrel, leave the shotgun with a good appearance and easily repaired if the idea is no good and be easily tweaked if the idea shows merit.

Why not use an extended choke and modify it by pinching the exposed part slightly?

The choke would have to be dedicated to one gun so that it would index properly but it would be very simple to do. If I were to try it I'd probably hold the barrel upside down above a flat-jawed vice, pinching a little bit at a time with frequent checks to make sure it still easily unscrewed.
 
My thought was you would have the forcing cone to deal with in the horizontal extremities. What effect, who knows. Modifying an existing full choke would leave the forcing cone on the vertical "sides" to tighten the pattern up and down and the cylinder on the horizontal extremes to widen the pattern. I am not a bird hunter but I saw the advantages of a oval pattern for dove hunting right off. Did not like the idea of smashing a good barrel, but smashing a choke tube would not be too expensive if it did not work. You are right that either of these ideas would need to be indexed to a particular barrel.
If boring, grinding,or EDM actually work, they would be more repeatable for anyone doing this if the idea works.
 
It has been about 50 years since I watched my dad hunt doves seemed like most shots were swinging across. I was sitting near his feet mostly and sometimes holding my ears, his shotgun had a Cutts compensator. My fifty year old memories might be off. For myself hunting pigs with a shotgun and 00 buckshot an oval pattern would have been helpful in most of the shots but 10 rounds total is limited experience.
If you hunt doves regularly you would know better than me whether an oval pattern would be mostly helpful.
 








 
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