Philip Luty R.I.P.
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    Default Philip Luty R.I.P.

    Philip Luty, Author of the Expedient Firearms books died on April 8th.

    The Home Gunsmith

    Death Of Philip Luty | Libertarian Party

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    Much as I appreciate Luty as a designer and machinist, I cannot condone his "crusade" for free speech through the medium of homebuilt machine guns. All it achieved was to empower those in power to stick their collective noses into even more folks business..

    I have actually held one of Luty's (siezed) weapons.. It looked good, but frankly was no work of genius, and I am not at all sure it would have been usable..

    As a UK shooter my opinion of Luty is that he was a wind up merchant, not at all interested in firearms or shooting, and saw his submachine gun projects as a vehicle for his rather extreme, almost anarchist views. I am no supporter of firearms legislation, but what Luty did was not helping, and possibly did more harm than good.

    As a direct result of Luty, there were a number of UK politicians and senior police who were seriously discussing the possiblity of banning of public ownership of metal lathes..

    A sad and misguided guy I am afraid...

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    i would agree and disagree.

    i would not say he was a good designer and machinist. his designs were crude and simple. that was the whole intent. most of them didnt inolve the use of a lathe or any machine tools at all.

    i would say it is a loss of a great freedom fighter. who refused to be denied his god given rights to defence of himself and family by a tyranical government. he should be used as an example by any there who dont want all of their liberties stripped from them. banning metal lathes?? because of luty?? this is just another example of a tyranical govt gone unchecked for far too long. we need more luty's in the world that arent afraid to stand for whats right against any odds, imo.

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    Phil Luty was my friend and I shall miss him. Phil's great crime was that he was a Brit subject and not an American citizen !!! He once told me that the label "patriot" was a derisive term there in the UK. Perhaps the Brits are still sour grapes about loosing their colonial cash cows !!!

    Gary Bauer

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    The notion that outlawing metal lathes is an option is disgusting to me. Almost as disgusting as monarchy and the outragious idea surrounding the hereditary right to political power.

    Because of bloodlines someone is entitled to power? Nonsense. Before the enlightenment Kings claimed the blessing's and support of God as their justification for being the chosen one. Challenge that and you die! Yet we still support and tolerate this Kingdom, the same as we do in the middle east.

    Many European citizens have access to weapons, Great Britain being the worst exception. The noose tightens on their citizens and instead of supporting them we blaim them for not fighting hard enough for their rights. Or worst, blaim the government's unreasonable actions on the few men who actually tried to empower their fellow man.

    Trying to associate a freedom fighter with anarchy is the age old tool of tyrants. As if those who would be free want no rules at all. More nonsense.

    edited to add: Until this post I had never heard of Phil Luty. May he rest is peace.
    Last edited by kevinbritvec; 04-23-2011 at 08:10 AM. Reason: add info

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    Felix,
    Luty's designs did not need the use of a lathe or a mill, infact, with a bit of imagination and a bit more build time, I don't think they'd actually need any power tools at all, unless a kerosene or propane blow lamp is considered a power tool.

    Given that information, what do you think the logic of the proposals for banning or licensing metal lathes and mills would be?

    Who was the threat to home shops? Phil Luty, or the Bureaucrats?

    Who would you blame if the ban came into being, and why?

    I'm curious how you came to see one of his seized guns, was it a prop intended to scare you into a certain way of thinking, as your views were sought on how to ban home shops?

    What Philip Luty set out to do, was to demonstrate the futility of the bans on law abiding citizens.

    There are any amount of excellent books and academic papers looking at the statistical evidence of the futility and counter productivity of gun bans; Colin Greenwood's "Firearms Control" and later work by John Lott, Gary Kleck, Gary Mauser, Howard Nemerov, the now rather old US BOJS "Crime and Justice in the United States and in England and Wales 1981-96"

    All of those have had ZERO effect on Britain's long march to having a disarmed and defenceless law abiding citizenry faced with an ever better armed and less policed criminal fraternity, and I might add, an ever more unapproachable and paramilitarised police.


    This was England, last summer. Land of hope and glory, mother of the Free? Check out who he's pointing it at and where his trigger finger is - a true "Only One" and I would argue, he's a far bigger threat to the life and liberty of an innocent person than anything Phil Luty ever did or planned to do. Also check out "Peel's Principles of Policing"


    Without Phil Luty's example, arguments that a working submachinegun can be produced in around a week by virtually anyone with the inclination, were just supposition, they carried zero weight.

    He demonstrated that it was possible, bans on legal ownership can not magically make guns go away (they can't even affect criminal's guns).

    Banning or licensing of home workshops would be every bit as effective.
    __________________________________________________ _________________________________________________

    Image Source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10583023
    Peel's Principles of Policing: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peelian_Principles
    Last edited by Alpacca Fortyfive; 04-23-2011 at 09:17 AM. Reason: adding image and correcting a few typos

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    An interesting set of replies..

    As the only poster from the UK, let me respond..

    1. This has nothing to do with Monarchy or hereditary rights Kevin.. Most of the problem here is with petty officials and minority pressure groups. The press here is so rabidly anti gun, that advertising anything about shooting on the TV or the radio is officially banned.

    2. Everybody who understands these things KNOWS that banning guns will never solve the problem, but passing such laws makes the politicians look like they are doing something. The one thing that they do NOT want is for someone to actually tell folk how to make guns, as they HAVE to be seen to take action..

    3. Kevin Luty was deliberately taunting the political classes with his projects. It was NEVER going to make anything better, indeed it was almost guaranteed to make things worse. I know Kevin thought he was striking out for liberty, but frankly he could have been a gun control freak, done the same thing to achieve the opposite outcome..!

    4. As far as banning home workshops, don't hold your breath.. Forget making guns, we in Europe are facing ever more stringent "Health & Safety" legislation which would, if allowed, ban most of what we do in our workshops. All it would need is a small stroke of the pen to put home workshops on the same H&S/Legal footing as commercial 'shops and 90% of our tools and practices would be banned..

    Don't get me wrong Guys.. I'm actually on you side, however I just think that Kevin's approach was misguided. Much of this nonsence is down to pig ignorance and stupidity, and we are the only folk who can change this..

    and you won't do it by rubbing official's noses in it...

    So - Campaign to make sure wood & metalwork is not removed from High School Syllabii.

    Join/form a club - get the kids interested..

    Lobby to get rid of "bubba" ( I think the term is?) TV shows like "Sons of Guns".. I tell you guys, this plays right into the hands of the Anti's - idiots don't do irony!

    Get smart - not angry

    ...Geesh - Politics and current affairs on an engineering board - who'd a thoct it?
    Last edited by Felix; 04-27-2011 at 02:31 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Felix View Post
    and you won't do it by rubbing official's noses in it...
    Very true. But if you still have popular elections, replace those noses. It's working here (in the old colonies), but it's a slow process. We're having to "grow" the replacements.

    Lowell

    P.S. There is a thrust from education boards to eliminate "shop" courses in primary education that I don't understand. I try to bolster the idea we'll always need people skilled with maths and hands to support our technology dependent society, but make little traction.

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    We have gained more freedoms in the USA in the last ten years because of the back lash created by the 1994 AWB. The Democrat's suffered huge losses because of their gun control stance and the Republican's who replaced them made good on their promise to restore gun rights and expand them.

    I was raised a Democrat and always felt working class people didn't stand a chance without their party. Unless they become champions for the Bill of Rights I will probably never vote for them again.

    The end result was I am now allowed to legally carry a side arm 24/7 hidden under my coat or concealed under an untucked shirt. I can legally carry a dozen of them if I feel the need. I have been restored the right to purchase any semi-auto rifle with any size magazine of my choosing. This was all made possible by politicians who overstepped their bounds. Without their excesses the firearms friendly politicians would have never been elected.

    We take our rights seriously and vent our anger accordingly at the poles when politicians try to re-interperet the very clear language that denys the government any ability to disarm the populace. I doubt tip toeing around the political class serves anyone's interests, other than theirs, when it comes to individual liberty.

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    Quote Originally Posted by L Haney View Post
    P.S. There is a thrust from education boards to eliminate "shop" courses in primary education that I don't understand. I try to bolster the idea we'll always need people skilled with maths and hands to support our technology dependent society, but make little traction.
    You want to watch this Guys...!

    To all intents and purposes this has already happened in the UK..

    Nearly all workshops have been removed from UK Schools in the past 10 years. This brought a flood of excellent tools onto the market for a short time, but the long term effects will be profound..

    The cause seems to be a shift in emphasis towards academic and away from practical subjects by the teaching body which is now dominated by third rate academics.. (1st rate have proper jobs, 2nd rate teach at University, 3rd rate teach at school), coupled with a rising fear of litigation and a risk averse society...

    The generation of people who came from industry into teaching have now retired and the field is dominated by graduate teachers who have never done anything practical in their lives. We were just discussing at a recent school reunion, that it was the "Techie" teachers who were the sensible grownups at school in our day, and who taught real life skills... (not like the rest, which seemed to have a pretty loose grasp on reality..)

    With the loss of workshops from schools, we have also lost the locus for engineering night school classes and clubs!

    We're all DOOOMEd I tell ye..

    Anyhow.. I think I have pulled this thread enough off topic for the moment... Last from me on this!
    Last edited by Felix; 04-27-2011 at 07:35 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Felix View Post
    ... 3rd rate teach at school...
    Thanks for the reminder, Felix. I must remember this when I teach in school tomorrow...

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    How sad. I've been familiar with Philip's website and his quest for many years. I've always considered Philip to be a shining spirit.

    May his valiant soul haunt his oppressors from the Great Beyond. They can't hurt him anymore.

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    I've linked to some threads on a british forum I found while trying to build up some sort of Biographical information on Phil.

    The posters include Phil's brother and his niece. Apparently Phil's bail conditions forbade access to computers or internet, and he was tagged and subject to curfew.

    I don't get to visit Britain as often as I'd like, and I'd almost forgotten the feeling of seige which pervades in some law abiding groups there. The forum threads bring that feeling out.

    One thing that I wasn't aware of previously; British gun magazine "Handgunner" had been visited and temporarily closed down for daring to publish factual criticism of that appalling POS the SA80 service rifle!

    The other quality British gun magazine, "Guns Review" had its publisher bought out and the magazine closed down by a multi millionaire Tory Party minister, just prior to a general election, to silence its criticism of gun bans. The editor of Guns Review was retired police superintendent and veteran gun law researcher, Colin Greenwood.

    What a subversive bunch ay?

    Philip Luty arrested again (UPDATE)

    Give your support to Philip Luty

    This links to an old article in Reason magazine,
    Dangerous Books - Reason Magazine

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    Socialists always know what is best for you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GGaskill View Post
    Socialists always know what is best for you.
    Here's a few of the 200,000,000 plus that they made one big decision for in the 20th century:

    cambodia skulls - Google Search

    Figures for murders by governments (mostly some brand of socialist) in the 20th century here:
    http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/20TH.HTM
    Last edited by Alpacca Fortyfive; 05-05-2011 at 03:16 PM. Reason: Adding link to Professor Rummel's site

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    Alpacca,

    Had a quick glance at your good professor's web site, and judging from the data he presents on an issue I have read extensively about, his stuff is worth shit.

    Arminius

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    Quote Originally Posted by Armenius View Post
    Alpacca,

    Had a quick glance at your good professor's web site, and judging from the data he presents on an issue I have read extensively about, his stuff is worth shit.

    Arminius
    I'm always open to finding better sources.

    What are you basing that assessment on?

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    It is tragic to hear how things are going on that side of the "pond" . When the 94 ARB went into effect in the US I read an article from England written by what here would be considered a police chief (I think) and even though I was polite when writing in rebuttal I did get the point across in no uncertain terms when he suggested that all arms should be banned everywhere he would not make a pimple on a chiefs butt .
    I have been a police armourer for more than one department at the same time beyond the 20 year mark and a federally licensed firearms manufacturer . The average officer and chief here (at least in my area) is completely against the removal of firearms from people in general and they will sign the paperwork for private ownership of NFA weapons ie. machine guns, short barrelled rifles, suppressors etc. after passing the required background check . This even after the shooting last January of a Tucson AZ. congresswoman. One of those that helped to detain the perpetrator was himself a concealed carry person but did not need to use his weapon to restrain him .

    If you sit by quietly and accept whatever they do it will not end well for you, your nation or the world .

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    Alpacca,

    quoted: "I'm always open to finding better sources".

    Glad to hear this, because MOST people are of the mind that what was good enough for grandpappy is good enough for me.

    For a number of reasons my interest is Germany and the two world wars for which Germany is blamed as the sole perpetrator....

    It is my (and others) considered opinion that this fairy tale is used as an excuse for so much warfare and killing nowadays.

    A number of books and your open mind should at least give cause for reflection on these and other issues.

    1) Churchill and Hitler, The Unnecessary War by Patrick Buchanan. "The unnecessary war is a quote by Churchill in regards to WWII.

    2) Human Smoke. I don't recall the author offhand.

    3) Icebreaker or, why the Soviet Union lost WWII by Victor Suvorov aka Vladimir Rezun. He was a Soviet colonel who lived through the meat grinder of the Soviet/German war.

    4) The Pity of War by Niall Ferguson who is now a professor of history and economics at a very prominent USA university. I forget which one.

    Then there is a lot of stuff by British and some American historians such as Arthur Bryant and Elmer Barnes.

    Some websites now discuss specific issues of WWII.

    Start with the above. For specific details you'd better PM me so as to not get this web site into difficulties.

    Arminius

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    Thanks Arminius, I'll check some of those out.

    Sorry for long time in replying.

    This is interesting reading, as long as your not a fan of Churchill, Woodrow Wilson, FDR, or Trueman, he also tears into Lenin Trotsky and Stalin, all of whom are well deserving of the criticism.

    He uses the term "liberal" in its classical, libertarian, free market and private property sense, not in its newer statist and socialist fellow traveller sense

    it's free as well!

    Great Wars and Great Leaders: A Libertarian Rebuttal - Ralph Raico - Mises Institute


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