Projectile speed when fired from different length barrels? - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveKamp View Post
    The question is subjective to more factors than just barrel length... and while I have a certain amount of respect to Gunny, comparing damage results is not a metric by which muzzle velocity can be accurately represented. A simple concept proof is this: Fire a .38 Special at a paper target at 10 feet. Fire a .357 Magnum at same paper target, from same distance, with same firearm. They'll both present the same hole. If this is the agreed metric, we could deduce that the .38SPL and .357Mag were travelling at the same speed, thus, no difference exists in the two cartridges... however, anyone who was the recipient of those cartridges at that distance, would clearly say otherwise.

    All cats have four legs.
    All dogs have four legs...

    Therefore... All Cats... are dogs.



    When there's still fuel to burn, the lack of a barrel will result in just fire and noise.

    When there's no fuel left to burn, additional barrel will result in loss of velocity.

    To determine the proper of effective barrel length, one must establish all of the variables, including the burn rate and pressures of the powders being desired, as well as the projectile mass.
    Question was asked using same type round. Percentage increase.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GGaskill View Post
    Some of the Olympic rapid fire pistols have several ports drilled in the barrel in front of the chamber to relieve pressure (and, presumably, decrease recoil.) I think one hole an inch from the muzzle would be adequate for testing and it could be threaded for a plug if you wanted to disable it. The through hole at .040" should be enough at the bottom of a 6-48 threaded hole. Might have to lap the bore so no burr is left.

    On the other hand, don't use rifle match or high speed in a target pistol. :-)
    I went shooting at a indoor range with a buddy from work. He did his own reloading for a .44 magnum revolver. He used the hottest powder and crammed every
    granule he could into his brass. The result was a long flame that came out the barrel. We had a short talk about gun frame warping and tendinitus.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GGaskill View Post
    Some of the Olympic rapid fire pistols have several ports drilled in the barrel in front of the chamber to relieve pressure...
    :-)
    That is not my understanding.
    To relieve pressure, reduce the gunpowder or change type.

    The ports on the barrel are to re-direct the recoil from an upward flip of the barrel to a more direct rearward force. It allows for a quicker target acquisition.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 9100 View Post
    It was a long time ago and the ammunition has changed, but I also found a measureable difference between Eley match and practice ammo but the difference was so small that practicing with it was valid. With high velocity stuff, you couldn't tell whether a flier was you or the cartridge. With Eley practice, you could be sure it was you.

    Bill
    Something that isn't appreciated by most non-match .22 shooters is that rim thickness is one of the big variables that affects accuracy in .22 rifles (and presumably handguns).

    It used to be that .22 match shooters would sort their ammo by rim thickness, and the stuff that was on the outside edges of the statistical dispersion was used for plinking.

    Today, Eley, Lapua and others make their top-drawer .22 LR ammo with remarkable rim thickness consistency. Now, the rim thickness of that particular load might not agree with your rifle, but it is more consistent than .22LR 'match' ammo was 20 years ago.

    I find in my Anschuetz, I have to experiment awhile to find the best-grouping ammo at 50 yard for a bit, and then I'll go buy a case or two of that specific lot/make/model of ammmo, and lay it away for several years. I'm just about to come up on this point again this year, so I'll get to see what works the best in my rifle.

    And I agree with that with these high-end ammo's (and rifles), you know when you have a flier, it's you. I tell people who want to become good at 3-position to get a good rimfire rifle, use good ammo you know groups well off a benchrest - and that way, when you miss, you can analyze "what was I doing that caused the flier?"

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    Quote Originally Posted by wyop View Post
    Something that isn't appreciated by most non-match .22 shooters is that rim thickness is one of the big variables that affects accuracy in .22 rifles (and presumably handguns).

    It used to be that .22 match shooters would sort their ammo by rim thickness, and the stuff that was on the outside edges of the statistical dispersion was used for plinking.

    Today, Eley, Lapua and others make their top-drawer .22 LR ammo with remarkable rim thickness consistency. Now, the rim thickness of that particular load might not agree with your rifle, but it is more consistent than .22LR 'match' ammo was 20 years ago.

    I find in my Anschuetz, I have to experiment awhile to find the best-grouping ammo at 50 yard for a bit, and then I'll go buy a case or two of that specific lot/make/model of ammmo, and lay it away for several years. I'm just about to come up on this point again this year, so I'll get to see what works the best in my rifle.

    And I agree with that with these high-end ammo's (and rifles), you know when you have a flier, it's you. I tell people who want to become good at 3-position to get a good rimfire rifle, use good ammo you know groups well off a benchrest - and that way, when you miss, you can analyze "what was I doing that caused the flier?"
    I would never have thought that rim thickness had more than a trivial influence on accuracy. This confirms my overarching statement of the principle of the universe, which applies to quantum mechanics, genetics, plate tectonics, radio astronomy, and everything else.

    "Nothing is simple."

    Bill

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    Quote Originally Posted by tdmidget View Post
    Links to these tests?
    There's over a hundred years of them out there. How much time does any given seeker have to review history?

    Basic research for the armchair curious. Or those who bother to do their homework.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rons View Post
    I went shooting at a indoor range with a buddy from work. He did his own reloading for a .44 magnum revolver. He used the hottest powder and crammed every
    granule he could into his brass. The result was a long flame that came out the barrel. We had a short talk about gun frame warping and tendinitus.
    Sanity check. .44 has seen everything under the sun from weak-ass rimfire upward.

    ".44 magnum" wasn't named because it was the most powerful handgun in the world. That was never the case in the real-world, only in Hollywood movies.

    It was a NECESSARY nomenclature to distinguish it from lesser .44 rounds and firearms not MADE for it.

    Actual performance wasn't all that different from the older heavy-framed goods chambered for .45 "long" Colt, handloaded. Wadcutters. How dead is dead? Cap & ball top of the food-chain monsters had more fearsome wound channel penetration than EITHER.

    Ancient and innocent-looking 1911A1 shape, chambered for .38 "Super" Auto wasn't really something any sane person wanted to be the target of. Look it up. Far more folks kilt with rather averge handgun rounds than "magnums" in any case. They were the ones issued. They were the ones THERE!

    You want to impress teeny-bopper mentality with muzzle flash? Just buy a damned FLARE pistol and REALLY get your rocks off.

    You need more 'working" barrel without taking up more overall space?

    Measure the obvious.

    Chambered round, ready to fire, magazine-in-grip semi-auto to muzzle.
    Chambered round, ready to fire, wheelgun to muzzle.

    Simple geometry of how they are built.

    My diamond setter was a Korean War vet and former NYC cop. His later in life licensed (Marylander), wheelguns were 6" - barrel - his backup, and 9" barrel - working, both .357 Magnum +P.

    For "regulatory" reasons, mine was a Remington. Tubular magazine. Long one.
    12-bore.



    The NYPD issue .38 SPL was why he was a "former" cop.

    He had put the whole cylinder load into a BIG druggies chest. Perp not only survived to go to prison, shot-up or not, he FIRST beat our man in blue so badly he was invalided off NYPD, took the better part of a year to recover.

    The other part of the choice?

    You wear an extra SMALL glove? That's wheelgun or Mauser "broomhandle" turf for a grip size and shape yah CAN "grip" to control it.

    You wear XXL extra large glove? Good up to a Star M50, similar staggered-column .45 ACP.

    Yah need one glove-size larger yet - really big hands - to control a Desert Eagle in .50 AE. CANNOT control it? Leave it TF alone or expect to hurt yerself.

    Buuuuut . a Colt's Dragoon or Whitneyville Walker always could be crafted for rather SMALL hands if need be.

    So can newer Godzilla's momma monster wheelguns.

    Not that I recommend it.

    More to it than just the hand!

    Minor velocity diff? Not worth a damn if yah can't hold, can't hit, and the barking little short-grip, lightweight over-cartridged bitch was pointed well off-line, sprained yer wrist, or even flew clear outta yer hand, second shot fired if not the first.

    If ever your life or safety depend on it? "Whatever" you have in-hand damned well better be every bit as smooth and "no prep required" natural as pointing yer own naked finger - first round, every round and into the perp not the BYSTANDERS please.

    /rant/
    Too damned many comic books pretending to be "gun magazines" for a world overloaded with gullible naifs.
    /end rant/

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    The .44 Magnum came about because Elmer Keith loaded .45 long Colts up to where they bulged the bolt cuts in his SAA which has the cuts in the center of the chambers instead of being offset to a thicker area. .44 Special chambers in a .45 sized cylinder gave them enough extra material. The .44 isn't, anyway, but actually a .42. If he really wanted a powerful handgun, he should have done like Linebaugh and Corbon did, pump up a .45 in a suitable frame instead of trying to do it with a gun designed for black powder.

    Re shooting big guys with .38s, look up Moro Uprising.

    Bill

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    I'm not sure I understand, but isn't "rim thickness" for a .22 LR just a headspace issue?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurt Learning View Post
    I'm not sure I understand, but isn't "rim thickness" for a .22 LR just a headspace issue?
    Uhhh "rimspace" might be more accurate.. teasing...



    Pehaps also a consistency of lock-time issue? Given the primer is in the rim?

    Gave a Savage-Anschutz - model 62 was it? - away last year to hopely get a friend's kid off to a good start. Repeat accuracy of those simple-looking things is impressive.

    So is the effectiveness of a decent .22 semi-auto target pistol at home-defense distances.

    No accident the lowly .22 LR has come to be known as one of the assassin's weapons of choice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 9100 View Post
    The .44 Magnum came about because Elmer Keith loaded .45 long Colts up to where they bulged the bolt cuts in his SAA which has the cuts in the center of the chambers instead of being offset to a thicker area. .44 Special chambers in a .45 sized cylinder gave them enough extra material. The .44 isn't, anyway, but actually a .42. If he really wanted a powerful handgun, he should have done like Linebaugh and Corbon did, pump up a .45 in a suitable frame instead of trying to do it with a gun designed for black powder.

    Re shooting big guys with .38s, look up Moro Uprising.

    Bill
    Myth & bloody "PR", that one is. Just tour the Philippines, Borneo, Mal-Asia, or Indohooliga. "Big" is a modern health and nutrition situation, serious-rare a hundred-plus years ago, not common, even yet today, any part of that uber-complex gene-pool.

    Moros were generally anything BUT "big", physically. They were just hopped-up on drugs and held a GENUINE belief that martrydom was a short-cut to paradise vs a rather seriously shitty life, HERE.

    The .45 ACP whether semi-auto or half-moon clips in a heavy .45 wheelgun, GI issue, "standard B", garrison duty, as late as the Korean War, was an improvement over .38 SPL, surely, but...

    What was BETTER didn't make it's name 'til War One.

    Basic 12-bore pump, long magazine. AKA "trench broom".

    "Clean kill"? Not often. Nasty "wounder", surely, and fatal wounds quite often. Body parts and fluids taking flight? Mostly too damned much "Hollywood". Again.

    But some truant whose whole nervous system is suddenly off its usual rations may well suffocate, black-out, or bleed-out before he's ever again much of a threat "in the moment", even to pull-pin on a grenade.

    No accident Law Enforcement still finds a Remington 1100 or equivalent right handy.

    Same again, or twin-tube, African dangerous game guides as last-ditch backup. Put 'em DOWN NOW. Buy time.

    Finish off the newly crippled next round. Or several.

    Might class a 12-bore as a "resolver" rather than "revolver"?

    Intimidating f**kers, up close and personal. For-sure anything mobile dumb enough to charge a 12-bore is too stupid to b'long in the gene-pool.

    So if the perp are even HALF-way functional to hear that shotgun action's chilling sound?

    Yah may not even need to waste the price of a round or fill out a report.

    Reduced "drama", nobody has to die?

    There's effective "defense" for yah.

    "Hollywood" thing. Most druggies and general-purpose damned fools have seen so many movies they believe no hand gunner can hit the broad side of a barn from the inside of it, are like to take a bad chance out of bad conditioning. YOU may know yer an expert, ambidextrous, any of many handguns. Perp doesn't even believe it possible. You may have to PROVE it. The messy way.

    Same again .223 AR or an AK. Movies - and actual WARS - are chock-full of thousands of rounds blasted for noise and counter-fire surpression - but damned few actual hits. Once again, they make a bad decision and yah gots to prove they are mis-informed. More mess and annoying paperwork.

    12-bore myth works FOR yah.

    Movies make out it is like a fire-hose as cuts through 12-inch concrete, hits around corners, and that number-one buck can chase a perp through half the Paris sewer system and still take his head clean off right above the ass.

    They believe NO chance?

    Right USEFUL "perception", that.

    I'm good with saving the price of a shotshell - a perp losing control of his bowels instead of his life is good enough.

    LazyIyam.


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    That is not my understanding.
    To relieve pressure, reduce the gunpowder or change type.

    The ports on the barrel are to re-direct the recoil from an upward flip of the barrel to a more direct rearward force. It allows for a quicker target acquisition.


    We're talking about .22 Shorts here, not a reloadable cartridge where the loader has control of the powder type.

    Regarding the ports on Olympic rapid fire pistols, they are at the back of the barrel which gives them little leverage on recoil; the recoil reduction is because the bullet velocity is substantially reduced.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GGaskill View Post
    ..Olympic rapid fire pistols, they are at the back of the barrel which gives them little leverage on recoil; the recoil reduction is because the bullet velocity is substantially reduced.
    "Back in battery" faster.. or never really much left it, Aye.

    Targets are all about consistency. Not maximum range, kinetic energy retained, nor wound channel penetration AT max range.

    Yah want THOSE start with the ancient .270 Win, modern 6.5 Creedmoor and work up through .50 BMG and siblings, 8" SP HOW, towards Mark 7, 16"-50, "super heavy" projectile.

    AKA "pee bringer class"... but only if they MISS and haven't destroyed the evidence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GGaskill View Post
    That is not my understanding.
    To relieve pressure, reduce the gunpowder or change type.

    The ports on the barrel are to re-direct the recoil from an upward flip of the barrel to a more direct rearward force. It allows for a quicker target acquisition.


    We're talking about .22 Shorts here, not a reloadable cartridge where the loader has control of the powder type.

    Regarding the ports on Olympic rapid fire pistols, they are at the back of the barrel which gives them little leverage on recoil; the recoil reduction is because the bullet velocity is substantially reduced.
    I didn't mean to imply that the shooter would adjust the powder charge.
    The companies that load target ammo (Eley etc.) can load to suit the needs of the shooter. Just as they do for other target sports, sub-sonic needs, CB caps and BB caps.

    My cursory search shows gas deflection ports at the front of the barrel.
    I'm not an expert, but maybe you could share some specific examples of ports located at the rear of the barrel. And how they do not assist in recoil control.

    composite2.jpg

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    I wonder if a weight could be made to move, probably operated by the slide or gas that would cancel some of the upward recoil. One that moved with the slide and back when the slide returned to battery would not really reduce recoil, just spread it out. A weight that rotated would cancel some of the gun's rotation. If you made it make a full turn, possibly with a crank and connecting rod, there would be no rebound. Its weight could be made to act as part of the slide weight, reducing the net gain in weight from adding the system. I haven't tried to calculate the weights and forces involved. It may be that adding enough weight would make it impractical.

    Bill

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    Quote Originally Posted by 9100 View Post
    I wonder if a weight could be made to move, probably operated by the slide or gas that would cancel some of the upward recoil. One that moved with the slide and back when the slide returned to battery would not really reduce recoil, just spread it out. A weight that rotated would cancel some of the gun's rotation. If you made it make a full turn, possibly with a crank and connecting rod, there would be no rebound. Its weight could be made to act as part of the slide weight, reducing the net gain in weight from adding the system. I haven't tried to calculate the weights and forces involved. It may be that adding enough weight would make it impractical.

    Bill
    Machine guns had done some of that math. Cannon still do. There's also a reason Bofors and Oerlikon cannon were most-often seen as pairs and quads, that such things as recoil management systems and "equilabrators" have been on field artillery - where the MONEY was - for a long time.

    Shoulder and hand fired? Just swear-in stouter troops or use heavier weapons firing relatively lighter rounds. Average schoolkid or undernourished adult third-worlder can fire any of a Shpagin, AK-47, AR... or a War One era Swiss Schmidt-Rubin.

    Difference in effective range?

    Only about a thousand yards, advantage to a "nation of snipers" scary-good enough at it they haven't much ever had to prove it anywhere but on firing ranges, 205 years [1] and still counting.

    Simplicity, skill, muscle, mass, and practiced familiarity is cheaper than complexity and points of failure.

    I'm good with that.


    [1] Invasion of France, 1815. There were skirmishes with now-and-then truant Wehrmacht, War Two, but both sides pretended they hadn't been a big deal - just the Swiss giving a bit of field training to their slower-witted "cousins" that Henri Guisan wasn't Marshal Pétain just because both had French surnames.

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    I was specifically referring to Olympic rapid fire pistols where an additional mechanism would be kept clean and serviced. As close as those contests can be, a few degrees less of muzzle jump could make the difference.

    Bill

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    Quote Originally Posted by rons View Post
    What would be the increase in speed when the same 38 round is fired from a 6" compared to a 4" or 2" long barrel hand gun?

    I watched a R. Lee Ermey Lock N Load show that was on the history of artillery. A longer cannon barrel does increase the speed of the projectile.
    The proof of that was the comparable damage done to the targets down range.
    BBTI - Ballistics by the Inch :: Home

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurt Learning View Post
    I'm not sure I understand, but isn't "rim thickness" for a .22 LR just a headspace issue?
    It is - but is also indicates another variable: How much open space there is inside the rim, and then how much priming compound is in that rim vs. a thinner rim, which will affect how "hot" the round will seem in the muzzle velocity spread.

    Remember, the guys shooting benchrest are very particular about their primers - for a reason. They're using low-brisance primers (ie, not "magnum") primers in many cases, and they prefer now small primers, and they want their firing pins to hit dead center, etc, etc. All these variables help reduce the standard deviation of the muzzle velocities.

    Likewise, the data I've seen shows that better rim thickness consistency is correlated (and might be causative) of lower SD's in MV's in .22's, which will of course help tighten a group vertically.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ulav8r View Post
    An amazing piece of work. Pretty much settles the question with real data instead of guesses. One surprise was how much velocity a .357 mag can get in a 2" or 3" barrel. Of course the muzzle blast would scare the victim into submission.

    Bill


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