Putting Gunsmiths Out of Business- ITAR - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Claude Wright View Post
    ITAR is for manufacturing, not gunsmithing or any activity that requires a 01.
    Manufacturing is a 07.
    Thank you Claude, but I doubt the tinfoil hats will believe it's anything other than a BATF conspiracy.

    When McMaster was busted and fined for selling industrial supplies to bad guys, it was an ITAR violation (during Bush's tenure). That's why they stopped shipping to Canada -- it's just too much effort for McMaster to scan every customer on the ITAR bad guy's list.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anvil Jenkins View Post
    http://www.pmddtc.state.gov/regulati...AR_Part121.pdf

    Spend just a little time reading over that list and you might see what we are getting at
    ...getting at. Since 1993:
    "Source: 58 FR 39287, July 22, 1993"

    ITAR also controls the shipment of supercomputers to known bad guys:

    "Computers with an adjusted peak performance above 0.75 weighted TeraFlops (speed rating) in aggregation are controlled. Yet, using information easily obtained on the internet, linking together 8 Cell processors (jointly developed by IBM, Sony, and Toshiba, and commonly found in the Sony Playstation 3), can produce 1 TeraFlop."

    So the National Research Council pointed out that many common PC's, even a Playstation 3 (which was designed and largely built in the US), qualifies under the ITAR munitions list. Ridiculous, right?

    Until you read that Iran built a supercomputer to run nuke detonation calculations with off the shelf AMD boards.

    Iranian Scientists Develop Country's Most Powerful Supercomputer - -

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by lazlo View Post
    Thank you Claude, but I doubt the tinfoil hats will believe it's anything other than a BATF conspiracy.

    When McMaster was busted and fined for selling industrial supplies to bad guys, it was an ITAR violation (during Bush's tenure). That's why they stopped shipping to Canada -- it's just too much effort for McMaster to scan every customer on the ITAR bad guy's list.
    I don't think it is a BATF conspiracy. But I DO think it is an ill conceived, expensive, and far reaching mandate and agency when the intended product is not destined for export especially. And when the fees can quadruple over a decade and it really does not attract much attention because so few people really understand how far reaching and overly intrusive it really is.

    There should not be a $2250 annual wire transfer registration required to make and sell a 10-22 threaded barrel that you machined and blued from a green mountain barrel blank (and green mountain had to pay the $2250 too) chambered with a Pacific Precision chambering reamer (ya they got hit for the $2250 too).

    Bill

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    Quote Originally Posted by Claude Wright View Post
    Again there never was a gunsmithing license
    Home based means zero to the BATFE.
    If you compliant with local laws and zoning then you can be issued a license.

    As to what constitute gunsmithing or manufacturing , all you need to do is follow the rules.
    Complicated and changing , sure but those are in the code.

    Been a 01 for 29 years so I understand the law.
    I have seen far more than one person who has been an 01 for a LONG time that plainly does NOT understand the law :-). They will insist inane things, like the "fact" that a non ffl cannot ship a gun to an ffl, and that Machine guns and other title II are "illegal as h*ll".......spew crap about having to have a "class 3 license" to even own MG and title II. I have no doubt you may know the law to the letter, but in general being an FFL for 29 years is no indicator of that.

    The guy I spoke of that makes or made the 10-22 barrels, he has had an FFL for over FOURTY years and he has no concept that he is not in compliance with ITAR as an 01 (or even if he did not have the license) making those 10-22 barrels as an "on the shelf" item.

    There are also different standards of what constitutes mfg as far as BATF goes and ITAR. Also what is subject to FET or not.

    I'm sure you remember when BATF did not care at all about zoning, they found out that forcing compliance with zoning and other minutia could give them a reason to deny some licenses and some renewals.

    They also strong armed some folks who had home (kitchen table) gun shops to either build a small building in their back yard, or set up a separate entrance that only led to the licensed premises.

    I have only been an 07 for 4 years now, but I do try to keep up on things.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Claude Wright View Post
    Again there never was a gunsmithing license
    Home based means zero to the BATFE.
    If you compliant with local laws and zoning then you can be issued a license.

    As to what constitute gunsmithing or manufacturing , all you need to do is follow the rules.
    Complicated and changing , sure but those are in the code.

    Been a 01 for 29 years so I understand the law.
    I had a gunsmithing FFL in 1970. A few years later ATF changed that to require an 01.

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    Quote Originally Posted by adamsgt View Post
    I had a gunsmithing FFL in 1970. A few years later ATF changed that to require an 01.
    01 has been that way since 1968 as far as I know but if you say so it must be true.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Claude Wright View Post
    01 has been that way since 1968 as far as I know but if you say so it must be true.
    Claude, I may be off a bit on the year, cause it was a long time ago, but I am 100% certain that my first FFL was as a gunsmith. The rationale in the letter from the BATF said that because a gunsmith might have to sell a gun to recover costs from abandoned property, they wanted gunsmiths to operate under the requirements of a dealer. That always sounded a bit flimsy to me. Over the forty some years I had my FFL I only transferred around thirty guns on a 4473. I gave up my FFL about 3 years ago and I don't miss it, except for the dealer discounts.

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    I was told that the FFL for a gunsmith is because of the firearm changing hands during repair work. I was also told at one time if the customer never left the shop while the work was being done no FFL required. So bring gun to be worked on and take it home each night till done. dont know how that would work out for other than simple repairs. I have enough problems with engineers standing around shop while I'm working on their projects.

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    Quote Originally Posted by adamsgt View Post
    Claude, I may be off a bit on the year, cause it was a long time ago, but I am 100% certain that my first FFL was as a gunsmith. The rationale in the letter from the BATF said that because a gunsmith might have to sell a gun to recover costs from abandoned property, they wanted gunsmiths to operate under the requirements of a dealer. That always sounded a bit flimsy to me. Over the forty some years I had my FFL I only transferred around thirty guns on a 4473. I gave up my FFL about 3 years ago and I don't miss it, except for the dealer discounts.
    I believe you as I was only ten years old and the son of FFL holder.
    Now I am the FFL holder and my father is retired.

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  11. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by MilGunsmith View Post
    I was told that the FFL for a gunsmith is because of the firearm changing hands during repair work. I was also told at one time if the customer never left the shop while the work was being done no FFL required. So bring gun to be worked on and take it home each night till done. dont know how that would work out for other than simple repairs. I have enough problems with engineers standing around shop while I'm working on their projects.
    I have done that with NFA items
    Owner is there and guns leave with them.

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    call your senator and congressman ,ask why a small business like a local gun shop has to pay a tax that international buyers and manufactures pay.

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    Is ITAR hiring?

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    I would rather hear that ITAR was firing, riffing, or laying off.

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    Default ITAR / DDTC status as of today, 4-11-19

    [QUOTE=DJA;1984139]Gunsmiths and those selling commercial ammo are now (apparently have been) required to pay a $2250 annual fee to the government due the International Traffic in Arms Regulation. ...... Is anyone aware of a legislative effort to deal with this? ....

    The dreaded ITAR / DDTC ruling is still in Congress but slowly getting attention in the House with Rep. Steve Scalise. Read [ NSSF Honors US Rep. Steve Scalise as 2018 Legislator of the Year - The Truth About Guns ] as of today, April 11, 2019.

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    Is this part of the international treaty that Obama signed but the Senate never ratified? If so that signed treaty lays there forever until perhaps some more hostile Senate decides to ratify it.

    Bob
    WB8NQW

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    Quote Originally Posted by DJA View Post
    Gunsmiths and those selling commercial ammo are now (apparently have been) required to pay a $2250 annual fee to the government due the International Traffic in Arms Regulation. According to information that I just received from ATF, all gunsmiths are required to do this, regardless of license type. ATF advised me that 07's need to do it, but a careful reading of the regulation clearly states that anyone "engaged in the business" of gunsmithing or dealing in commercial ammunition also need to register. This law was clearly not intended for this but, rather, true arms trafficking and exportation. This will put 80% of gunsmiths out of business. Take it seriously... there have been many arrests with tens of millions levied in fines. Call ATF and they will send you an information packet that they prepared.

    Is anyone aware of a legislative effort to deal with this? I would expect that Brownells or Midway would be spearheading it.
    Had "interview" with ATF agent yesterday regarding my application. He specifically brought this up since I have applied for a Type 7 Manufacturer. He told me if I manufactured "over 50 firearms per year", I "might have to contact them". So looks like it is open to interpretation.


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