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  1. #21
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    The BATF goes back and forth with the political winds. Pistol braces, bump stocks, etc have been legal, then illegal, then legal, and so on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wyop View Post
    If you're making parts that can be readily assembled into a firearm, you can run into ITAR issues.

    For example, barrels. You either have to get your customers to certify that they're not going to export said product, or you need to become licensed as a 07 FL and then pay the ITAR licensing fee. Here, the ATF isn't the one setting the agenda, it is the US State Department. A bigger pack of fools and idiots you will not find than the US State Department, BTW. I've had to deal with these same people on computer parts & system sales in the 1980's, for the same treaty reasons.
    A friend who had a photo processing shop and got into computer graphics early participated in a seminar in Mexico. He got in trouble crossing the border with an original IBM PC, the one running DOS that a three legged turtle could outrun, because of a dust covered law prohibiting critical technology export.

    Bill

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    Quote Originally Posted by 9100 View Post
    A friend who had a photo processing shop and got into computer graphics early participated in a seminar in Mexico. He got in trouble crossing the border with an original IBM PC, the one running DOS that a three legged turtle could outrun, because of a dust covered law prohibiting critical technology export.

    Bill
    It is is all about the "people" that happen to be on any given scene, in that particular moment, Bill.

    Examples: My ability to take a laptop into and out of PRC with a wink and a nod, take photos inside the military Museum, Tianenmen Square, sit in the Great Hall of the People, headphones on, yadda, yadda.

    ... all only because of that "wink and a nod".

    Either someone figured me "non-threatening". OR the patient bastids were quietly building evidence for a bigger-hammer case for use in pile-driving my ass directly into bedrock, LATER!

    Chinese be-you-rock-rats may have several thousand years head start on that shite, but we surely have our own share of Hoovermint munchkins as can stitch a body up.. even if he's been elected frickin' President.

    Of the United States.

    Why give them any cause at all to take an interest in our ordinary lives?

    Kudos to truly professional Gunsmiths who have the patience - and BALLS - to deal with all this shit.

    Least we chikn's can do is buy sumthin from them now and again so they can also EAT reg'lar-like, yah?

  5. #24
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    Here in WA state its not gun friendly and its going to get much worse. I remember police stings starting in the 1970s with those Auto Sear kits that dropped into the early version of the AR 15, all the other kits from sub machine guns to silencers sold through shotgun news.
    Doing the slightest amount of gun work will invite those stings with gusto. One of the most interesting laws is its a felony to posses a "machine gun part"-no further clarification. Another is a state tax that must be paid on fire arm work, get another felony on that.
    The worst rumors go like this, I just did this, but the snitch, and the cop handler says I did more....Sounds typical these days doesn't it?
    I found one cop interesting, he was truly jealous of my skills, after all, I can make most anything I want. He could only wallow in the sewer trying to entrap people. tsk tsk

    The best reason not to do gun work is most gunsmiths struggle hard to even stay in business, with all the crap, and license they put up with, they will not like you, and most likely will complain, that may unleash unfortunate events.

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    Quote Originally Posted by donie View Post
    One of the most interesting laws is its a felony to posses a "machine gun part"-no further clarification.
    Dunno if this is even still an issue, or even ever WAS an issue on a Springfield Armory M!A1 or similar M-14-derived "clone. I thot they engineered it OUT?

    .. but...

    All we had to do with GI-issue M14's was have our unit armorer push out a tiny pin, take-off a cyclindrical part, replace it with what resembled a cylinder with stubby ears - sorta like a pointy eared wing-nut. I haven't SEEN one since 1968 so I may be off on remembering the appearance, but still..

    That single tiny part was what made the M-14 "selective fire", semi-auto to full-auto.

    AKA a "machine gun", in civilian terms. Not really, field of battle, bugger was well-off point of aim by the second round, three was all one dared. Plus the barrel life was no match for an M60!

    Now ... a person who was never a veteran before the M-14 was replaced by Mattel-toy twenty-twos to sell more ammo to Uncle sugar to waste wouldn't even have a klew what that funny looking little item WAS. IIRC, it was about the mass of a 1/2"-13 hex nut, and not a lot larger, wings and all.

    If one of those was to be inherited in a pile of some deceased veteran's junk and Big Gov ever caught him with it? M-14 around (they are a LOT less common than AR's, after all..) to FIT the silly thing or NOT?

    "Machine gun part".

    And he'd be at risk of serious grief. blinsided out of innocent ignorance!

    Worse-yet?

    What IF.. somebody gone a-hatin' on another person slipped it INTO his zone, victim unaware. Then ratted him out?

    Some days.. it isn't even whether a Government has gone all aggressive citizen-hostile.

    It can be that careless laws have empowered PERSONAL evil to be weaponized to sic an overly zealous hooverment onto a bady framed "perceived enemies". Or even just as a sick idea of amusement.

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    Just remember, nothing is illegal. Until you get caught. Of course then it is rectum stretching time in jail when you drop the soap.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RC99 View Post
    Just remember, nothing is illegal. Until you get caught. Of course then it is rectum stretching time in jail when you drop the soap.
    What I've heard.. no soap involved.

    Store securty. 100% "off duty" local police, our company - caught one perp out of three, other two ran-off, strong-arm robbery.

    Perp is soon facing our head of security and his Deputy. Both retired Internal Affairs, Metro DC police force.

    Perp is all hard-wired proud about his martial arts. Ain't ratting out HIS mates!
    Record shows up..

    Prior jail time.

    Discussion turns to his probable future. Decides to co-operate, rat-out his mates after all.

    NO WAY he is going back to jail. He was raped, and badly. "Pulled a train". About 40 cars.

    "You got gang raped? What happened? Why didn't you use your martial arts stuff?"

    "Man, when you got five inmates standing on each arm and leg waiting their turn at yer a**, you can't USE NOTHIN'"

    Lots of reasons to give jail a miss.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MetalCarnage View Post
    Point taken. The laws and the ATF are a huge poo-show when it comes to firearms. It is always best to read the laws directly from the ATF or if you have questions give them a call (but get it all in writing because their agents don't necessarily know what the law is either.)

    -Ron
    ATF most of the time has no idea what is what. Agents contradict themselves and ATF letters are subject to revision and as ATF themselves say: "it's only due diligence" You can have an ATF letter and still be prosecuted by law.

    As to "calling" ATF it's friggin non-sense. Unless you are an FFL and have a line to an ATF agent, general numbers will tell you to send part in question to WV.

    Quote Originally Posted by UncleFrank View Post
    The BATF goes back and forth with the political winds. Pistol braces, bump stocks, etc have been legal, then illegal, then legal, and so on.
    exactly!


    It's all politics and depends heavily on what ATF or judge had for breakfast. You can be dealing drugs and get caught with full auto AK and no papers and walk next day on 10k bail. You can also have a gun malfunction and go to slammer with no prior record. These are NOT hypothetical situation, those are real cases.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    What I've heard.. no soap involved.

    Store securty. 100% "off duty" local police, our company - caught one perp out of three, other two ran-off, strong-arm robbery.

    Perp is soon facing our head of security and his Deputy. Both retired Internal Affairs, Metro DC police force.

    Perp is all hard-wired proud about his martial arts. Ain't ratting out HIS mates!
    Record shows up..

    Prior jail time.

    Discussion turns to his probable future. Decides to co-operate, rat-out his mates after all.

    NO WAY he is going back to jail. He was raped, and badly. "Pulled a train". About 40 cars.

    "You got gang raped? What happened? Why didn't you use your martial arts stuff?"

    "Man, when you got five inmates standing on each arm and leg waiting their turn at yer a**, you can't USE NOTHIN'"

    Lots of reasons to give jail a miss.

    Great story. There are a lot of bad things that can happen, you can take a drive to a store and get run over by a semi in a freak accident.

    The only way to stay safe and keep your a-hole rape free is to go into a secluded, well padded room.

    I feel bad that this country of law and order is turning into a 3rd world shithole with no rights, laws and a fickle judicial system. Something to be proud of, n'est pas?

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    As I have observed more than once, as progress progresses, new situations occur and the judicial system has to deal with them. Once there were no speed limits because nothing went faster on land than a horse. There were no cell phone privacy laws because there were no cell phones. Guns came with a test because if you didn't clean out the power fouling, keep the flint sharp and adjusted, etc. you didn't have a functioning firearm long. More regulations are inevitable, we just need to try to keep them rational. You can't apply 1800s laws to a Barret rifle or a MAC 10. The debate and wrangling will continue and the judicial system will always be behind.

    Bill

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    As mentioned above, ITAR should be the focus here for a typical job shop, not BATFE.
    Manufacture a run of otherwise innocuous bushings or whatever, that happen to be for an item on the USML, and you're subject to ITAR.

    BATFE couldn't care less about ITAR, different agency...

    Good read, here:

    https://www.williamsmullen.com/sites...%20ITAR(1).pdf

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    Since you can't get a license if you're not in the business, doing favors for friends is a non issue at the Federal level. States are a different matter.

    Jeff

    Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

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    Actually,9100 is not correct,in the horse and buggy era,there were offences related to "furious riding" and "furious driving".,and I found that my great grandfather was jailed for a month for just such offences,in 1886.

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    You can't apply 1800s laws to a Barret rifle or a MAC 10.
    Assuming the people in charge understand the reasoning behind the second amendment they should therefore understand that the People need exactly what was considered legal in 1789 (Last states of that era ratified 1790) when the BOR's was ratified, that is, any weapon needed to return Liberty to the people, and undo the power grab of tyrants, therefore, naturally, any weapons needed to equal those of the tyrants.

    I see no reason to assume that a good citizen is any more likely to commit murder with a machine gun than with a flint lock rifle, only the numbers wounded or killed change, and 95% of people are not murderers with any weapon, and the crimes of a few do not justify the loss of Liberty for the majority.

    A good way to look at this is that those who DO evil should be punished, not those who do NOT.

    People who smoke drugs or inject them automatically prove they are a danger to the rest of us, now police in many cities will not arrest even heroin dealers who hold less than a certain amount. This means those of us who don't live as criminals are being brought down to their level, any of us can reasonably be considered to possibly be a crack smoker, a meth user or a smack head since there are so many bad people allowed among us.
    No matter how that came to be it does not justify the loss of Liberties of good citizens, and when the time comes to take our nation back from power mad despots it is the really good people who will risk their "Lives, Fortunes and sacred Honor" to take our nation back.
    All we have to do, in this regard, is to consider those great men, what outrageous odds they bucked, what disgraceful death by firing squad or hanging they faced had they failed.
    I think every good citizen should consider what likely went on in the minds of those original Framers of our Republic. Any one of those men, if they had the resources, could have purchased an 80 gun Man-o War, the most powerful weapons system of the time, and I strongly expect they intended all good citizens throughout the life of this nation's existence to be able to wield the weapons they could afford to keep our Liberties.
    Should we ever need them, I hope we have them, because it's all about, once again, Liberty or death.

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    I fundamentally agree with you. As I have said many times, I keep and sometimes bear arms and have every intention of continuing to do so. Where I diverge with many folks is that a flintlock rifle comes with an intelligence test. An owner who does not clean and service it does not have a functional firearm for long. Now, especially with the advent of the AK, any retard who can manage to push cartridges in a magazine can cause a lot of trouble. We need to recognize that and find a way to cope with it. I would much prefer to have gun ownership wide open, no controls at all, but I have doubts that is practical.

    This link for a map of St. Louis homicides loads on my Android phone but for some reason will not on my computer. Try it.

    st louis homicide map 2019 - Google Search

    See the concentration of murders in the north. This is the black area. The Riverfront Times did a survey that shows that the great majority were black men 18 to 25 killing other black men 18 to 25.

    Now look for Kirkham Ave. in the northwest corner of Webster Groves. Kirkham comes from the north and bends around to the west. The area in this corner is called "North Webster" and was originally slave quarters, has been almost entirely black since. They also have black men 18 to 25, but the murder rate there and in neighboring Rock Hill is nil. Why? If we can find the answer, we could go a long way toward lowering the murder rate in St. Louis, currently the highest per capita in the US.

    In Webster Groves, where my shop is and Brentwood, where I live, gun ownership is not a factor one way or another because we don't shoot each other.

    Bill

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    Any interpretation of the Constitution must include intent.
    The purpose of the Second Amendment was to insure that the government didn't run roughshod over the population.
    I know plenty of people that lawfully own machine guns, and they don't behave like criminals.
    There are also plenty of murderers that don't need a machine gun to commit crimes.
    It isn't about the gun. It is about the crime.
    If you think the Constitution is out dated, consider the First Amendment.
    None of the Founding Fathers had computers or the internet, but they believed (unlike today's networks) that citizens had the right to express their beliefs.

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    The name escapes me at the moment, but it was a comedian I listened to who put it rather succinctly regarding gun control and gun-free zones.

    "You can't stop insane people from doing insane things by passing insane laws.... THAT'S INSANITY!"

    He said this because of one inescapable fact - by definition, criminals do not obey the law. And, as an afterthought that he pointed out, isn't murder, regardless of method, already illegal?

    This is why gun control laws and gun free zones will always fail.

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    Got a question since this thread has had a bunch of experts contributing. How about making reproduction sight, side plate and barrel band screws for 1894 through 1903 (Model1898) Krags. For those that do not know these are ex military rifles that were sold to the public when they had been replaced by a bigger better faster rifle. Quantities out there are in the 100,000s of thousands, many of the screws where buggered up by hardware store screw drivers.

    Looked at ITAR regs a few years ago and there was something about items to improve a weapons functioning. Would a CNC produced screw that looks prettier or held to a closer tolerance be a problem?
    I did make a thousand screws for flintlocks about a year ago and did not even worry about it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by koehlerrk View Post

    He said this because of one inescapable fact - by definition, criminals do not obey the law. And, as an afterthought that he pointed out, isn't murder, regardless of method, already illegal?
    I have posted this before. A young fellow came to look at a mill I was selling. He was very bright, but not as conversant with a machine shop as you might expect. When I asked if he was a machinist, he said no, he was in law enforcement. It took a little prying, but he finally told me he was an FBI agent. In the following discussion, I asked his opinion of concealed carry. He said he was strongly in favor of it and went on to run down the procedure to buy a gun on a permit and get the CC license and that anyone who would go through all that was not someone he had to worry about, the guys he chased didn't register their guns. There you have it from a federale.

    Bill

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    Quote Originally Posted by FredC View Post
    Got a question since this thread has had a bunch of experts contributing. How about making reproduction sight, side plate and barrel band screws for 1894 through 1903 (Model1898) Krags. For those that do not know these are ex military rifles that were sold to the public when they had been replaced by a bigger better faster rifle. Quantities out there are in the 100,000s of thousands, many of the screws where buggered up by hardware store screw drivers.

    Looked at ITAR regs a few years ago and there was something about items to improve a weapons functioning. Would a CNC produced screw that looks prettier or held to a closer tolerance be a problem?
    I did make a thousand screws for flintlocks about a year ago and did not even worry about it.

    All models total approximately 500,000 rifles. Not quite the market you anticipated.


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