Rifle from hell

Kurt Westfall · Jun 18, 2003

Ever have one of them rifles that just fight you? I got a Hall in 22RF thats on its 4th barrel and it still won't shoot up to par ( benchrest) beding is .0015 movement, nothing touching, like triger to stock, or bolt handle, or guard screws and stock or bottoming out. Barrel free floting. Action threads true, lugs 90% contack, chamber shows .0002 TIR barrels are all top name, Hart, and Shilen. .002 clear from bolt nose to barrel, and head space set right, .003 between go and no-go. What am I over looking?

doc · Jun 19, 2003

my rimfires ALWAYS shot best w/ no more than .042 hdspc , & some as tight as .041 ( .001 under min.) early on , we gauged rims to effect a slight crush fit .early 52's were notorious for opening up groups as internal bolt wear opened up hds to .044-5 which today is considered "go" ..later 52's ,C,D.E, had hardened internal bolt parts .#2 they also shot best w/ pretty full throat engraving on bullet ....i used sepaate throater so i could adjust .....u cannot adjust a load for top accuracy like a center fire so you must adjust the environment to fit the particular idiosyncricies of ur particular action /barrel/stock/ ammo.....some years at camp perry , would go thru 8-10 different lots before finding a barn burner w/ a particular barrel , & every once in a while , a great barel would shoot almost any lot! & when in trouble , i wasnt above experimenting w/ some business cards stuffed under barrel at front of stock ( course , it wud be different the next day , or even the same day w/ a weather change) .......this is why so many have given up & gone to center fire! I FEEL UR PAIN!!!!

best wishes
docn8as

Kurt Westfall · Jun 19, 2003

Well Doc this one has realy got me stumped, the head space is set to .042 with a light resesence at.043 and no-go at .046, bullet shows lands to about 50% of its length. I have used this for other guns and they have all shot well, did try some presure at the fore end, but it was kind of a jerry rig on the spot thing. The darn thing mite shoot well for a group or two then start throwing shots all over for no reason that i can see ( wind switch or pick up ) and cleaning don't help. The search is on for that 1 in 1000 barrel.

doc · Jun 20, 2003

if it shoots a couple groups well .it is POSSIBLE that as barrel warms up , it starts bearing someplace due to expansion & minimum clearance ....be interesting to see what barrel does on another action..!?.....maybe let another knowledgeable buddy check it over ....sometimes a second pair of eyes helps ...they can drive u nuts!...had a nice l c smith specialty skeet gun w/ a single trigger that would "double " about every other round ( hard to concentrate wondering if this is the time it s going to double)...tore it down at least a 1/2 dozen times ...couldnt find any thing wrong ....took it to a guy who used to work on single triggers at factory ..he gave up ...sold it telling buyer the problem ...after several more smoothbore "experts" ,last i heard ,it had double triggers!!!

doc · Jun 20, 2003

one other thought ....it just may be out of resonance & a 1/2in off muzzle may put the oscillations so that the variations in the curve due to ignition/charge are on the flatter parts of the sine wave rather than on the ascending or descending legs.thus negating the vertical spread.....in center fires a 1/2 grain or so increase /decrease accomplishes this ...this is why most hot shooting loads are at abt the same groups of velocities .....did the pulled barrels perform on other actions?.....have u slugged these barrels checking eveness & SIZE ?( muzzle at least as tight as rest of bore ,preferably a feww tenths tighter)sometimes sloppy lapping can bell BOTH ends......i have pulled a known good barrel & installed it on a problem gun ,looking for answers....usually when u fooled around so much that u are going bannanas , a new barrel solves the problem ,...but after 4 barrels ???????????//.........would like to see that barrel in a barrel block & the action floated ......maybe hall had a bad day????..fraid i havent been much help ....have u tried lighting a candle to the riflemans patron saint ? surely there must be one.....

best wishes
docn8as

Kurt Westfall · Jun 20, 2003

I think cutting is the next step. lighting a candle mite work, name calling sure don't!! By the way I put the mate of this barrel on a Shule 150 and its shooting .200 groups at 50YD, with two def lots# 2 years apart. Swiching actions would be hard due to the thread 7/8 X 14 and at 1K apice kind of costley. I did slug it, but just to feel for even, and the muzzle is tighter, did not check for round. Thanks Doc, your one of the few I have ran across that knows what makes a RF work.

blackboat · Jun 21, 2003

Not familiar with the Hall action, but it seems after 4 barrels something should have changed. Just throwing out ideas here, but is it possible that the firing pin spring is slightly cracked, firing pin binding, in bolt body, dragging over sear or something? Just thinking inconsistent ignition, maybe not barrel at all.

Good luck,
Rob

gamachinist · Jun 21, 2003

Have you tried a dampning weight on the barrel to see if it is a harmonics thing?Did it ever shoot good?If it never grouped tightly then something has to be wrong in the action imho.Could the bolt face not be square with the barrel?
Have the makers of the barrels or action been unable to give you any direction?I know if it was me I'd be on the phone with someone.Even the best people let something slip by now and again but four problems in a row?I hope you aren't insulted by my ideas as it sounds like you've got much more expierence than I.
Is the action or the barrel the $1000.00 part?I'm guessing the action.Robert.

[This message has been edited by gamachinist (edited 06-20-2003).]

[This message has been edited by gamachinist (edited 06-20-2003).]

Kurt Westfall · Jun 21, 2003

Never check inside the bolt, will have to do that. No never did shoot up to par, thats why so many barrels. Yep the action is 1K, I did check it for square and it was, action face, threads, realey don't know how to check the bolt face, as its resesed, and only about .275 in dia. were the rim sets.
As for a tuner this rifle is not alowed that, so its got to shoot raw.

[This message has been edited by Kurt Westfall (edited 06-21-2003).]

gamachinist · Jun 21, 2003

Could you remove the barrel and use a depth mike to reach the bolt face and check at 12,3,6,&9 'oclock to see if it is square with the barrel shoulder?As small as the bolt face is,even a 1/8" rod in a depth mike will make it hard to get an accurate reading.Probably the best way to use a depth mike would be to get an extra rod to grind down to a smaller size at the tip.Rods are about $8.00 to $10.00 from MSC for a Starrett.It might be worth the sacrifice to check it out.
As for the weight,even if you can't compete with it,you could try it as at this point it would be nice to know if it helped.
In mho,it's got to be something in the action.Was it purchased new?If not,I wonder if someone tried to "improve" it?
If I have ant more brainstorms I'll post them later,Robert.

[This message has been edited by gamachinist (edited 06-21-2003).]

gamachinist · Jun 21, 2003

One more thought I forgot to bring up.Did you use the same reamer to cut all these chambers?If so,has it ever been loaned to or pawed by someone else?It's a long shot,but if it is damaged it could be the problem.I'd think if it was bent you could see it on the bullet where the lands engraved it but I'm not sure.
Robert.

[This message has been edited by gamachinist (edited 06-21-2003).]

gamachinist · Jun 21, 2003

Another question.You said" The darn thing mite shoot well for a group or two then start throwing shots all over for no reason that i can see ( wind switch or pick up ) and cleaning don't help. " Does it start to shoot good again on it's own or does it go away and stay gone until you work on it some more?I'm trying to think of something that could get out of spec after a few shots.
The only thing I can think of that would make it go bad that fast is severe leading but you said cleaning doesn't help.
Somebody somewhere knows the answer.
Robert.

Kurt Westfall · Jun 22, 2003

Action was new from Hall him self. reamer was new also, and never loned out, its cut 90% of the chambers I do. It will spray the shots around for about 5 shots then settle down, not uncommon, then start spreading out after another 5 to 10. and no pattern to it. Right now its on hold till I get caught up on other things.

gamachinist · Jun 22, 2003

Since it's on hold(I know that feeling)I'll quit bugging you especially since most of my sugestions have already been tried anyway!Good luck with it.You'll probably be working on something else one fine day and the solution will pop into your head like a light bulb over Wyle E Coyote in a Road Runner cartoon.How about sharing the solution when it arrives?
Robert.

Kurt Westfall · Jun 22, 2003

Not bugging me Robert. If I knew the answer I would not have to ask the ? besides always looking to get smarter. Seams the older I get the more I find I don,t know nothing, come to think about it, I was a lot smater at 16 than now.

GGaskill · Jul 1, 2003

Maybe the "lead deposit in front of the chamber" problem that is the current rage?

gamachinist · Jul 2, 2003

I guess that's like a noisy muffler bearing?
Robert.

Kurt Westfall · Jul 3, 2003

Well I cut another .250 off the barrel, seams to do better, but more testing will tell. As for the lead in the chamber, it does happen, you can see it with a Hawkeye bore scope right at the leed. I got stuck with a roofing job, two Ruger 77s to bed, plus a fence to build. When it rains, it pours!

Kurt Westfall · Jul 30, 2003

I fixed it, easy, traded it off.

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