RIMMED Cartridge conversion question
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  1. #1
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    Default RIMMED Cartridge conversion question

    I have constantly seen people on the various forums who state that they have had modern, rimless cased center fire rifles converted to use 30-30. They have never been willing to give the contact name for the gunsmiths, and in the cases i HAVE been given contact information, the gunsmith either has no recollection or went out of business before 2000.


    I want to convert a rifle to 30-30 winchester. I have absolutely NO problem finding places that will MAKE a barrel chambered in 30-30, seriously i can get a 26" 8 lb barrel for a savage 10/110 for 400$ no issues,

    but i cannot get ANYONE who advertises as a gunsmith or gun builder like McGowen, to actually alter the bolt face. When I try to get an explanation i get some form of the following excuses:

    1. The 30-30 chambers on the rim, it wont chamber correctly on a rimless bolt face
    *still cant figure out how PROFESSIONAL gunsmiths wouldnt be able to comprehend how silly that is to say.....

    2. The 30-30 RIM DIAMETER is to LARGE for anything currently offered in the 8x57 / .223 remington case head families.....

    * they understand the .300 win mag uses a bigger rim then the .308 winchester, but dont see the issue that BOLT HEADS are identical size in the actual guns.....

    3. why do something that would be a single shot, or need a custom magazine design

    *enfield magazines are available,,,, savage 340..... dont need much capacity for a hunting rifle. can stack cartridges mosin style with side ribs like the 300 black out does


    Now the questions to ask....

    1. is anyone here ever done this before?

    2. Is anyone here willing to be man enough, or to actually be a gunsmith and do both the rebarrel and bolt face work?

    3. Anyone here ever consider that the henry style extractor has worked for over 150 years with a rimmed cartridge and would work in a bolt action?

    4. Anyone ever considered the following idea, or that its ALMOST already been done, in multiple stages, over several different gun designs. IE just combine the stages of evolution that worked?

    A bolt action conversion for lever action rifles.

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    The bolt face and barrel work are the least of the worries with rimless conversion to rimmed cartridge. The magazine and feed geometry pose an unknown time factor for the gunsmith doing the work. He knows that the customer, (you), will not be satisfied with spotty feed, or extraction. The smith sees the possibility of many hours invested in the work, with an unhappy customer potential. Conversion of the many single shot rifles are successful. If you continue your quest, keep the Remington and Savage bolt actions in 30-30, at least for their magazines, in mind.

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    I want to convert a rifle to 30-30 Winchester.

    This statement is really insufficient to make a good answer to. What rifle?

    Many years ago, my brother once had a M1917 chambered for .30-30. I really don't remember much else about it, although I have in inquiry out to him to see if he remembers more.

    It would seem that bolt face modifications to a Mauser style bolt would be straightforward and the extractor should not be a difficult proposition, either. A rimmed case is not really ideal for a recessed bolt face design. As the SMLE shows, it should be possible; might even be easy if you started with an SMLE although the rim diameter of the .303 is .034" larger.

    The Remington 788 was factory chambered for .30-30 W if you want to look for one of those. The factory should have resolved all the feeding issues that a conversion would need resolved.

    .30 Remington is rimless and otherwise almost identical to .30-30 W, except for ease of ammunition acquisition.

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    Is there anything to be learned from a Mosin Nagant? 54R?

    I've never even held one with an open bolt. ;-)

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    Many years ago, my brother once had a M1917 chambered for .30-30.

    OK, this statement is an example of fading memory. It was unchanged and .30-06.

    I still think you could take a Swedish Mauser action and make it work with .30-30. Depends what you want and how much you are willing to pay.

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    Slightly off topic but along the same lines, I converted a standard 98 Mauser action to feed 7.62x54r out of the original magazine. If you want something done you just have to do it yourself.

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    All the Lee Enfields have flat bolt faces ........I suspect the word you are grasping for is "headspace".....anyhoo ,i have no doubt a lee Enfield made between 1889 and 1989 would be very easily converted to 30/30......not that there is any point as 303 is a much better cartridge.......I believe Winchester chambered the forerunner of the M70 .the M54 in 30/30......Savage certainly made a factory rifle in 30/30 ...the Model 340......Anyway ,what is your question.....what rifle do you want to convert ......and as for difficulty of conversion ......here ,several Garands have been converted to rimmed 303 B......and clips designed and made to hold the rimmed case......So whats the problem?

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    And as for nonsense,a 30/30 has a rim diameter of .504".....any belted magnum has a rim diameter of .534".....so how is 30/30 too big?.......I might add the British P14 has a recess dia of .534"+ to suit 303 rims ,and this bolt face will also fit belted magnums without alteration......hence the 308 Norma Magnum conversion of the P14

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    Quote Originally Posted by john.k View Post
    And as for nonsense,a 30/30 has a rim diameter of .504".....any belted magnum has a rim diameter of .534".....so how is 30/30 too big?.......I might add the British P14 has a recess dia of .534"+ to suit 303 rims ,and this bolt face will also fit belted magnums without alteration......hence the 308 Norma Magnum conversion of the P14
    I called the people at McGowen this afternoon, and the bull they gave me WAS "the rim diameter on the 30-30 is larger then any standard savage or remington bolt face that comes from the factory."

    When i pointed out the same size bolt face for the model 700 can take a larger rim diameter the excuse became "but the 30-30 chambers/headspaces on the rim unlike a rimless round, it cant be done.."

    but if you look at the early breach loading bolt action rifles from europe, they solved the extractor issue rather well.

    I tried last year to see if the remington authorized service centers in Michigan could swap a barrel on a remington rifle to use 8x57 in it,,, they refused. claim they dont have the equipment or ability to do so on a bolt or pump action RIFLE.. So i called the remington people up, and was told that the REMINGTON FACTORY cannot handle such a task on a rifle that has left the factory.

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    As mentioned previously

    If you want it, you may need to do it yourself.

    A tig torch is a mighty hand tool in a gun plumber's shop ;-)

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    I thought Mc Gowan was like ...hyper expensive?.......Actions which IMHO are more difficult than most would be any of the military Mausers.....especially the pre 98 actions .....all of these have open space where you d want a rimmed case to headspace.......the Yugo 98(Serbian 1910) is different ,and barrel fitting is a lot more work than a standard Mauser......I think a Rem 700 may be difficult due to the circlip extractor.......Any gun with the extractor sliding in a bolt lug should be easy to convert,but steer clear of any where the bolt locks directly in the barrel.Lot more work.......PS Mausers were made in rimmed calibres ....most common would be the Siamese type,Mauser also made magazine 303s. ,Both types had a considerable slope to the mag so that rims wouldnt lock when clip fed

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    Winchester did chamber the model 54, parent of the model 70, in 30-30 caliber. I have a complete action in my shop, picked it up years ago to build a 219 improved zipper but never go around to it. As I recall There are two small groves machined on the feeding ramp for the nose of the ctg to engage when sliding into the chamber and guide the case into the chamber. Ctgs are staggered side to side in the magazine box as in a standard magazine. There is a special block in back which insures the rims are staggered and not on top of each other. Maybe a few other differences but don't have the action in front of to give a close inspection. To me the hard part would be to make the magazine box but anyone adept at metalworking could put one together -- bend, solder, file, heat, etc.

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    ???

    And I don't understand a word of eye talian

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    ... the .30-30 chambers/headspaces on the rim unlike a rimless round, ...

    That is the conventional way of controlling headspace with a .30-30. It could be chambered to headspace on the shoulder like a rimless case, but probably not something that McG would really want to do. Don't know why they don't just tell you they don't want the job.

    And if you don't provide any information, we are going to start thinking you are really just a whining troll.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GGaskill View Post
    ... the .30-30 chambers/headspaces on the rim unlike a rimless round, ...

    That is the conventional way of controlling headspace with a .30-30. It could be chambered to headspace on the shoulder like a rimless case, but probably not something that McG would really want to do. Don't know why they don't just tell you they don't want the job.

    And if you don't provide any information, we are going to start thinking you are really just a whining troll.
    It is my opinion and since I am the moderator here, I can delete your comment. We allow differences of opinion but are not so keen on bad mouthing each other.

    mcgowan gave those excuses this afternoon why they cant do it, but i havent found any self proclaimed gunsmith, not even a few custom gun builders making m40 clones for 5k$, that can do it. Its like, a complete lack of skill or ambition.

    Guess its the curse of the AR "plug and play"ideology that has hit people for the last 4 years
    Last edited by GGaskill; 08-14-2020 at 11:18 PM.

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    Hey all
    The trick to getting a rimmed cartridge to work in a bolt gun, disregarding the magazine issues which are outside of the discussion, is to choose an action with either a separate non-rotating bolt head such as the M88 Commission Mauser, the Portuguese Verqueiro, the Lee Enfield, the M1903 Mannlicher Schoenauer, the Savage models 340, 40, and 45 Super Sporter, the .44 magnum Model 788 Remington etc. or an action with a rotating bolt head and non/rotating extractor such as the M98, M95, M96 and M93 Mauser, the Krag Jorgensen, 1914 and 1917 Enfield, M1903 Springfield etc. What is to be learned from the Mosin Nagante, or the French Berthier actions that use a rotating extractor with a rimmed case is that the extractor will occasionally jump the rim. The system will work, but certainly not the preferred method. Note that both of these rifles use a very large rim on the cartridge to help alleviate the issue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pocketshaver View Post
    thats your opinion you can keep it somewhere dark and tight.

    mcgowan gave those excuses this afternoon why they cant do it, but i havent found any self proclaimed gunsmith, not even a few custom gun builders making m40 clones for 5k$, that can do it. Its like, a complete lack of skill or ambition.

    Guess its the curse of the AR "plug and play"ideology that has hit people for the last 4 years
    Do not think McGowan's reluctance is any plug and play mentality. I think Sealark nailed it in post#2. If you want a rimmed case get a 30/40 sporterized Krag. Nice ones go in the $400.00 range. Lot less money and more better cartridge. Easy to find ammo and components today.

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    A Remington would be a giant pile of ... work. You'd need to cut the front of the bolt down and lose the extractor. Replace it with a Sako type, and then relieve the breech end of the barrel where it needs to rotate.

    A push feed M-70 would be a little easier. Just leave the one lug proud with the extractor, and relieve the barrel as above. Same for a Savage.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CalG View Post
    Is there anything to be learned from a Mosin Nagant?
    Yeah, design the damn thing so it can be opened and a fired case extracted without having to bruise the palm of your hand on the bolt handle.

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    The simplest front locking rifle would certainly be a P14.....all the complication was worked out in 1914 by the designers at RSAF Enfield ...... if you look at the detail ,you will note the barrel has a quarter/circular groove to accomodate the LH locking lug .....but the case head is completely enclosed.....even the xtractor is modified from the 96 Mauser design ,so that no part of the case body is unsupported ............When modified to the M17 design ,it reverted to the 96 Mauser idea of unsupported case head .


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