Technical/Manufacturing Drawings for Sporting Rifles

Good Morning All,

I'm on vacation and spending some time thinking and planning future fun projects. I happened across an article about defense distributed winning their court case, which got me thinking about all the guys making and selling XX% AR lowers, etc.

Since I have the tools/machines, I thought it might be a fun and challenging project to make my own rifle, as much as possible, from scratch.

Since I don't know the first thing about firearm design (although I am an ME by education and work in industrial machine design and automation) I figured I'd see if I could find a place to start online. The problem I ran into wasn't difficulty finding models and drawings, it was knowing what is not junk out of the thousands of results.

Besides the obvious, is there really any way to tell the difference between a CAD model done by a kid who drew something cool, and an actual manufacturer when it's a random Google search result?.

I guess what I'm looking for is a reputable source for models and/or drawings (I could obviously make models from drawings). I don't mind paying for them from a reputable source either - I'd much rather pay for ones that are good than spend a hundred hours searching for "free" ones. I just don't know where to find them.

I also trust the opinions of folks here more than I would some random Internet gunbroker forum I've never participated in - I know there are a million of those out there, often populated by folks who are enthusiastic, but not very knowledgeable.

For the record, I have a Haas VMC, Hardinge lathe, Covel surface grinder, and all the other assorted tools you'd find in a small shop. I am aware I will likely have to buy or outsource some components.

Thanks all!

Look at cncguns.com. He has 3d drawings I believe.

Take a look at grabcad.com.
Many accurate solid models of parts and complete assemblies.

billzweig said:

Take a look at grabcad.com.
Many accurate solid models of parts and complete assemblies.

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I use GrabCAD all the time for stuff, but it's exactly what I had in mind when I said I was concerned about things being of unknown quality. There's just no way to know how accurate something on there is, so I would never use it for technical purposes - only cosmetic stuff.

US Patent Office. Anything Mauser related.

Jeff

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

Commercial manufacturers are not going to be posting their trade secrets on the internet for any one to build their products. So things you find will be plans drawn by someone who has measured a given sample of product, or "improved" designs that have no testing behind them, or any of a dozen other combinations or permutations. These plans are not going to have manufacturing tolerances or heat treat instructions or materials lists. They are not going to say lathe turn to .015" over and cylindrical grind to finish dimension after heat treatment.

This is not to say that all this can't be figured out, and an ME has a leg up on most people for doing that. But I would say that you should start with something simple, for a low pressure cartridge, and don't try to do too much for your first project. You will probably have to buy and/or make some special tooling. Look at the various build posts on Home Gunsmith and see how they address things.

This kind of thing can be a satisfying hobby but it doesn't come with a full set of instructions.

A long time ago I decided my time was better spent else where, then satisfying a need to say I did it. Yes, I pursued this in the much older days.

Butch Lambert said:

A long time ago I decided my time was better spent else where, then satisfying a need to say I did it. Yes, I pursued this in the much older days.

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It's actually more about finding some fun in machining again, and the reward of learning something new. It's a bit of a grind right now...

weaselfire said:

US Patent Office. Anything Mauser related.

Jeff

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

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Patents usually don't have dimensions, let alone blueprints of the product.

About the only rifle I can think of where all the necessary information to build one is available would be the 1903 Springfield Rifle. It's extremely well documented here - Manufacture of the Model 1903 Springfield Service Rifle - AbeBooks

There may be others but this is the one I know of.

FWIW

-Ron

Dlask has blue prints of ar lower and 1911 frame on their website

dero338 said:

Dlask has blue prints of ar lower and 1911 frame on their website

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I was all set to order these when I saw they're based in Canada, and can't/won't ship internationally - bummer!

I have gone through this with a 700 knockoff as well as designing a .50 BMG from scratch. Sadly your concerns were EXACTLY what I found. Without actually going through ALL of the math my self, there was no way to validate anything I found online... And what I did find on line would not necessarily meet MY objectives. The math should really not be an issue for even someone with a high-school education, although someone with a high-school education is not likely to know that.

As an engineer you should find the math to be quite simple. Start with something you would like to base a design on. then decide what your limits are for safety and function. For my .50 BMG it was 3x bolt shear in a FULL case separation and no more than 0.0015" bolt thrust in a standard load. Also must accept a standard model 700 trigger and bolt take-down tool. from there it was 15 minutes of math and the time to figure out how to make the parts fit.

Given your stated goals some fun at the machines and learning something new, I think you can meet your objective VERY easily.

Ar Blueprints BiggerHammer - When a small hammer just ain't enough

JS,
I know this isn't exactly what you're asking about but I'll tell you a brief story... I started with a fascination for making a gun from drawings early on in my machining/engineering career, this would have been in the early 80's. I started working from a Mauser action, drawing each section, each part, blah, blah, blah. As my machining experience grew, so did my interest. From my sketches I began the first project. It's a '98 Mauser done in a solid bottom single shot. The camming surfaces slowed me down but eventually from posts here I figured out the method for cutting these. This one still isn't complete but I have the means of finishing it now... I moved on to thinking about making an AR about 20 years ago, somehow work interfered and I never went down that rabbit hole. With the availability of finished receivers now my interest has never returned to that, I've played mechanic and bought parts and built a few but they really don't do much for me. The next turn I made was the passion that started over 25 years ago and has slowly turned into an all out obsession - building single shot rifles. There is a forum out there called the ASSRA that has a few old grumpy guys that share passions similar to mine and quite a few lurkers that PM me about some of the pieces and parts I post. Currently I've posted a few pictures of the sights I make, most are for the guns I'm building but a lot are just hair-brained ideas I come up with and share. I've posted a picture or two of the guns I've made, but I fall into the category of many machinist, I make these things they didn't turn out perfect, they function but they aren't show pieces so I tend to shy away from posts of this work.
The archives in this association has drawings for lot of these vintage rifles for sale at $10 each. Some of the drawings like the Hepburn and the Ballard are very well put together and an actual firearm can be made from them, some experience in understanding fits is required and common sense helps. I've cut a few of these actions from 8620 barstock, and built quite a few from castings that have become available.
If any of this interests you and you have more questions send me a PM. I don't frequent this forum like I use to but I check in occasionally.
Greg

shutinlead said:

JS,
I know this isn't exactly what you're asking about but I'll tell you a brief story... I started with a fascination for making a gun from drawings early on in my machining/engineering career, this would have been in the early 80's. I started working from a Mauser action, drawing each section, each part, blah, blah, blah. As my machining experience grew, so did my interest. From my sketches I began the first project. It's a '98 Mauser done in a solid bottom single shot. The camming surfaces slowed me down but eventually from posts here I figured out the method for cutting these. This one still isn't complete but I have the means of finishing it now...
......

I've cut a few of these actions from 8620 barstock, and built quite a few from castings that have become available.
If any of this interests you and you have more questions send me a PM. I don't frequent this forum like I use to but I check in occasionally.
Greg

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Could you post some pics of your projects?
I am making some mauser 98 receiver blanks right now.

Doug,
As I said the Mauser and most others are on the back burner, I'd have to dig to get a picture. Single shots and parts for them are all consuming. Here's a couple pictures of some Farquharsons, I started - just going off the photos in Wal Winfer's books on British rifles - yes they are shoulder cannons, 577 NE and 400-450. There's a couple of Winchester 1885's - they're originals put together from parts, some I make - some I scrounge. Finally, some of the sights I make. I don't offer any of these for sale, it's a hobby and I have tried mixing business with my other hobbies before, it takes all the fun out of that entertainment form and you end up working for pennies.
Greg

I'm also a ME and have worked in the firearms industry and petrochemical industry since 1989. The military is currently using some of my designs and I have had other successful designs.

Almost every thing on grabcad is junk. There is very little there from actual manufacturers drawings. Many of the models that are from manufacturers drawings have errors in them from what I have seen. It basically comes down to if you want it right do it your self. I stopped posting my stuff on grabcad due to issues I was having with the staff over there and their rule that if you show it you must give up the complete work for the public. Most people over there just want to take your work and they never generate anything for the community.

Mongo | GrabCAD

GGaskill said:

Commercial manufacturers are not going to be posting their trade secrets on the internet for any one to build their products. So things you find will be plans drawn by someone who has measured a given sample of product, or "improved" designs that have no testing behind them, or any of a dozen other combinations or permutations. These plans are not going to have manufacturing tolerances or heat treat instructions or materials lists. They are not going to say lathe turn to .015" over and cylindrical grind to finish dimension after heat treatment.

This is not to say that all this can't be figured out, and an ME has a leg up on most people for doing that. But I would say that you should start with something simple, for a low pressure cartridge, and don't try to do too much for your first project. You will probably have to buy and/or make some special tooling. Look at the various build posts on Home Gunsmith and see how they address things.

This kind of thing can be a satisfying hobby but it doesn't come with a full set of instructions.

Click to expand...

Thank God that John Browning and/or The Mauser Brothers ignored this advice!

Certainly, be very careful - as you suggest - but nothing is impossible. Dave Kiff (PTG) is manufacturing M700 actions (that are probably better than any out there) for $700 - a few years ago all the voodoo experts were doing the same thing for $1500 - or worse, charging $1500 to true up a REM M700...

He must have a genie in a bottle?

I like Dave, he's cool!

Try assra.com in the archives... half a doz or so drawings of older guns; win single shot, etc.
A lot of them were done for working with a set of castings so they are missing information useful for cnc but still a good start. A lot of detail for $5.00 each. 'A' size so copying them a 2x often helps readability. HTH