A turning question (Or how to make yourself puke) - Page 3
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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by 300sniper View Post
    again, just my opinion, i think a better shop policy would be to keep brakes from going down range in the first place, not destroying the ones that do.

    how many range rods did you have for each caliber? how close of a fit were they? obviously something in your setup is wrong if you are getting bullet strikes on the brake.

    We didn't get bullet strikes on the brakes that went down range. The brake broke off at the first set of holes. It would only happen every couple of hundred brakes or so. Couple of theory's, harmonics and bad steel. The company making the brakes for us used a lot 1144 Stress proof. The spec's called for a 4140 HT. When I left the company they still didn't know.

    Our range rods were set up for each caliber and furnished by the folks making our reamers. They are a precision ground tool. The bore portion was twice as long as the brake and was fully inserted in the bore before the expansion chamber section entered the brake.

    The only brakes that were destroyed, were those that would not pass rodding when first installed.

    It doesn't matter how good your setup is to cut the barrel threads , if something is askew with the brake it is not going on straight.

  2. #42
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    There was no evidence that any of the occasional muzzle brakes that went down range were bullet strikes.

    We explored that idea by shooting some the brakes that wouldn't pass rodding. There would be obvious wash on the brake or it would break the side of the brake out. But they never broke like the others, breaking off at the holes.

  3. #43
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    First- I wouldn't refund anything. Sounds like you did a good job. Lesson learned, have the mating part in your hand

    Second- It does NOT cost another 200 tax for a new tube. The manufacturer can make another and destroy the orig. It will cost whatever they charge.

    Third- You can cut threads between centers all day long, it really is a preference thing. imop

    Fourth- I wouldn't refund a dime. this can't be said enough. He got what he paid for. Yes I understand this is a repeat of #1

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockmup View Post
    First- I wouldn't refund anything. Sounds like you did a good job. Lesson learned, have the mating part in your hand

    Second- It does NOT cost another 200 tax for a new tube. The manufacturer can make another and destroy the orig. It will cost whatever they charge.

    Third- You can cut threads between centers all day long, it really is a preference thing. imop

    Fourth- I wouldn't refund a dime. this can't be said enough. He got what he paid for. Yes I understand this is a repeat of #1
    holding the receiver in a 4 jaw dialed in by the od and then the od of the barrel at the muzzle end in a steady rest is not the same as turning threads between centers. there is way too much room for error in his setup, even if he thought he was threading for a muzzle brake.

    for threading a muzzle, you don't necessarily need the mating part in hand but you do need to know what the thread specs/class are. i do know that if i thread a muzzle with the method i use, the threads are as parallel and concentric to the bore as possible and as long as the muzzle device is of the same quality, there should be no issues. for a muzzle brake, i do prefer to have it in hand so i can bore the exit hole concentric to the bore. most of the brakes i deal with have an undersized exit hole. it just makes sense to single point bore the exit hole with the brake mounted on the barrel at the same setup as threading the muzzle, one less place for something to go wrong.


    edit: your user name sounds very familiar from another site :flipoff2:

  5. #45
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    I heard back from my customer yesterday and he had just sent the can in so I dont know how that stands at this time. He was gracious enough (sic) to tell me that he was not comfortable with the looser threads and seeing how it was his "favorite rifle and most accurate rifle" he is now going to have the threaded portion cut off and re-crowned and sell the rifle, he just felt it would never be the same.
    Now how the hell am I suppossed to counter that from a business standpoint?
    Not to mention the kick in the 'nads effect it has on me personally. I take my work seriously and a mistake by myself even moreso.
    I brought up the idea of re-barreling with a better barrel and he did not want to do that. I offered to split the cost of it with him and to even send it to the barrel manufacturer of his choice and I would pay to have it threaded by them at the time of install. No dice.
    I feel I have been more than reasonable with him and when he came down last week I asked him if he would like me to cut the the threaded portion and turn, thread and crown instead of repairing my prior work. He refused saying he did not want to affect the accuracy of the rifle.
    Obviously at this point I have lost his confidence. But his comment as to the future of his rifle seems like a juvenile thing to say and reaction to this issue. I understand how bummed he is but really?
    Aside from re-imbursing him for shipping the can and repair to it I dont feel I owe him more than that at this point. I already repaired the out of true threads at no cost to him other than gas to get to my place. I offered alternatives to him at a substantial cost reduction to him, he declined.
    I dont know what else to do to try and make it right.

    I guess the old sage is true: "You cant make 100% of the people happy 100% of the time"

  6. #46
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    hey hockeysew, what exactly is he asking of you at this point?

    i do have a couple questions. did the customer give you any thread specs, length, class, accuracy? if not, did you ask for them? are your threads actually undersized, smaller than a class 2?

    i certainly do understand the customer's frustration but i do feel that he is being a bit juvenile with wanting to sell the rifle over this.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by 300sniper View Post
    holding the receiver in a 4 jaw dialed in by the od and then the od of the barrel at the muzzle end in a steady rest is not the same as turning threads between centers. there is way too much room for error in his setup, even if he thought he was threading for a muzzle brake.
    the point of turning between centers had been brought up in this thread. I understand its not the same as working off a steady rest.

    for threading a muzzle, you don't necessarily need the mating part in hand but you do need to know what the thread specs/class are. i do know that if i thread a muzzle with the method i use, the threads are as parallel and concentric to the bore as possible and as long as the muzzle device is of the same quality, there should be no issues. for a muzzle brake, i do prefer to have it in hand so i can bore the exit hole concentric to the bore. most of the brakes i deal with have an undersized exit hole. it just makes sense to single point bore the exit hole with the brake mounted on the barrel at the same setup as threading the muzzle, one less place for something to go wrong.

    hows he going to check class / quality of threads without it ? i've seen some real crappy threads on cans.It shouldnt matter what your cutting threads for. The quality of your work should be the same


    edit: your user name sounds very familiar from another site :flipoff2:
    yeh, I see you

  8. #48
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    the muzzle device manufacture is going to spec out what thread fit they want. some will want a 2 and others will want a 3. without the muzzle device, he could still check the pitch diameter with a thread gauge or the three wire method.

    i fully agree that it shouldn't matter what you are threading for, the quality of your work should be the same.

  9. #49
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    maybe i am missing something, what is the benefit of doing precision barrel work between centers instead of through the headstock and a range rod indicated in two places? i can not think of any benefits over the other method.
    Reply With Quote
    How closely do the these range rods fit the bore? slip fit, light press?

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    There could be a flaw in you setup. I know when you are using a center rest you have a to be super careful to get the part aligned with the lathe axis, it will look like it is spinning true but in reality it is not.

    I am not a very good story teller, so try this at home. Repeat your setup but turn on your center rest to make it noticeably off center I think you will notice that the part will spin true according to you dials. If you run a dial along with the carriage you will see the part is turning like a taper. You have to make sure that its axis is true in both the horizontal plane and vertical plane.

    When I have to use a center rest I chuck the part up between centers make sure it is spinning true then get the center rest adjusted to the part. Either that or I just chuck it up in the four jaw get the whole part spinning true along the whole length of the part then bump the center rest up to it.

    I almost think that you could have caused the problem by not have the center rest dialed in right. It is a very tough attachment to use if you don’t have years of experience using it. Best place is to ask how to use it in the general forums to get some of the great machinists to tell you how to use it.

    Jeremy

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by homemade View Post
    How closely do the these range rods fit the bore? slip fit, light press?

    less than two tenths slip fit. i do plan on going to a modified "gordy gridders" method soon to eliminate all clearance. as it is now, a dti in the bore says it's working pretty damn good. i do think there might be an even better way to do it so i will try it.

    now some questions on doing barrel work between centers, how accurate is the chamfer/countersink on the bore that you stick your center in? what method did you use to get it as close to dead nuts as possible? how in concentric is the bore an inch or so back from the center? how concentric is the bore 2"-2.5" back from your center? how do you know? did you have to change you setup during the work or was it all done in a single setup so you know nothing moved?

  12. #52
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    now some questions on doing barrel work between centers,
    The only complete chambering I have done is to re-barrel Mausers. That I do through the headstock with a spider on the outboard end with 4 jaw with copper wire ring or in the last instance an O ring, (which will probably make you cringe) which I found satisfactory. Indication was done with indicator stylus stuck in the bore fore and aft. Threading for muzzle breaks and suppressors is done between centers. Though I have only done a few rifles and a couple of pistols I have had no problems with bullet strikes. I leave things in place until I am through, but if your are careful and don't change anything you can take the work out and put it back when working between centers.

    I am aware of the theory of using the range rods but do they fit the bore well enough to be a true advantage. I have no experience with them, so I asked. No challenge intended.

  13. #53
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    Hockeysew... EXACTLY what diameter gauge pin did you use? What are you using to measure that gauge pin? What exactly did you use to measure the run out of that gauge pin when you were dialing in the barrel?

    Threading for a suppressor means you must do a superior thread job as the slightest amount of run out in the thread is going to be greatly magnified 8" out from the crown.
    Last edited by Freedom Gunworks; 01-29-2011 at 09:37 PM. Reason: edited to subscribe to the thread

  14. #54
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    Most of you are familiar with Deltronic pins. I have a set of 25 for each caliber that I work with. I have 9 sets at present. I get with the barrel maker and ask the middle dimension in tolerence for a particular caliber. Take 6mm for example. Say it is .237. I buy the set with .237 as the mean and it comes with 12 sizes above and below the .237 in tenth increments. I'm not really trusting the centers in barrels. I work in the headstock indicating the bore. I have a spider on each side of the headstock with copper inserts in the set screws. After you indicate the bore you can clean up the OD of the barrel to make it coaxial with the bore. It is ready to thread at this time. http://www.deltronic.com/literature/...age-guide.html
    Butch

  15. #55
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    I suspect the owner threaded on the suppressor, and promptly whacked a door jamb.

    Did you ever get a chance to look at it?

    If he wasn't upfront about the suppressor, why not? Seems like he was a bit shy about owning a suppressor.

  16. #56
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    My thoughts on this would be to BUY THE GUN!!!

    Having purchased a NFA firearm that the previous owner had threaded locally and later I ran into problems with the bullets striking the suppressor, I can understand the firearm owners frustration, but not to the point of refusing all reasonable offers.
    I called the manufacturer of my can and was told $79 usually covers all repairs, but if it can't be repaired, a new one would be subsituded for about $600. Pictures aren't even considered, and sending the can to them is the only way to find out the cost. However, should they determine that it isn't a $79 fix,(no problem) and more likely a $600 fix(not an option), I can have it returned. However, if the can is determined to be "unsafe", they will not return it at all. (Talk about asking for a "blank signed check". There are small outward dents in the outer diameter of the can which concern me about them viewing it as "safe".
    Should be some way to determine what is safe/unsafe other than them keeping my can.
    David from jax

  17. #57
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    Default setup for threading bbl. muzzle

    hockeysew: While there may have been other issues involved, the setup you used wasn't adequate for the job [dialing in receiver end off of bbl. OD, using leather between steady rest supports and bbl.]. It would have been better to run between centers. I run through headstock if possible,using 4 jaw and spider on outboard end of spindle. The only people who don't make mistakes are DEAD people!! Better results next time! PS: I have built a ball bearing spider for my steady rest which allows me to precisely dial in a bbl. bore for TIR and concentric with spindle centerline. If I ever get around to buying a digital camera and learning how to post photos I will do so. I'm an old fart trying to learn new technology.

  18. #58
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    I always grind a range rod to fit ever barrel, can/suppressor for each job . This has never failed .


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