What can we as individuals or a group do about gun violence?
Close
Login to Your Account
Page 1 of 101 1231151 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 2013
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Webster Groves, MO
    Posts
    7,215
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    1810
    Likes (Received)
    3278

    Default What can we as individuals or a group do about gun violence?

    As everyone here knows, we are surrounded by people, often with the best of intentions, who can't wait to confiscate all our guns. Other than contributing to some organizations and writing our congressmen, individuals have not really been doing all that much. There is a lot of noise about keeping guns out of the hands of the wrong people, but not much really accomplished.

    To introduce myself, which many of you have heard before but some haven't. I am coming up on 84 in a few days, got my first .22 rifle at 13 and have always had guns since. I keep and bear arms and have every intention of continuing to do so. I joined the NRA before a lot of you were born. As I write, there is a loaded 12 ga Browning O&U three steps away and I support concealed carry.

    The point of that monologue was to make it clear that I am not some sort of bleeding heart anti gun type and the things I may propose I believe are in the best interest of the sport, even if some of you don't like them.

    The question is- what can we do as individuals or a group to bring the firearms world around to a more rational state?

    Like Chicago, St. Louis often has multiple murders on a weekend. A sad commentary was when I said to a black friend that I was nervous about going in a certain part of town. He said "You don't have to worry, you're white." The reasons for that condition are complex and beyond the scope of our forum, but someone makes the guns and distributes them. The police are constantly picking up convicted felons carrying guns. How do they get them and what can we do about it?

    Lest this seem like a racist post (it isn't) there are literally hundreds of cases where guns bought legally are used in multiple murders. Do we need to change the purchase system? I don't like the idea of more stringent background checks, but as a card carrying member of the human race, I like these murders much less and if I need to give up some of my autonomy to stop them, then I would have to regard it as a reasonable trade.

    Off the soapbox and into the asbestos suit,

    Bill
    Last edited by 9100; 08-08-2019 at 04:03 AM.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    California, Central Coast
    Posts
    3,427
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    2169
    Likes (Received)
    1333

    Default

    My simple mind just goes to enforce the laws we already have.
    That doesn't do much for the overload of prescription drugs that are a likely contributor.

  3. Likes Scottl, Joe Miranda, DrHook, dolf, Illinoyance and 1 others liked this post
  4. #3
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Vt USA
    Posts
    6,754
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    737
    Likes (Received)
    2317

    Default

    Popular culture that glorifies perverse actions with firearms without the positive social reinforcement of home, family, community and nation, WILL foster an unacceptable ratio of misfits.

  5. #4
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Webster Groves, MO
    Posts
    7,215
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    1810
    Likes (Received)
    3278

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by CalG View Post
    Popular culture that glorifies perverse actions with firearms without the positive social reinforcement of home, family, community and nation, WILL foster an unacceptable ratio of misfits.
    I agree. I think that shootouts often are emulating TV. They had a great shootout, lots of fun so let's have one of our own.

    A while back there was one near the Crown Candy Company, a legendary restaurant. On the news, I saw yellow case markers with numbers in the 20s. These guys had 100 round magazines on ARs and sprayed the area. Somehow Crown Candy survives, I think partly because there is a lot of industry around it and consequently less population. People like me will drive across town for their sandwiches.

    Bill

  6. #5
    Join Date
    Jan 2019
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    California
    Posts
    59
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    34
    Likes (Received)
    34

    Default

    As a libertarian I've been one that wants almost no restrictions on guns but it appears as a society we can't handle that responsibility. The asshole in Ohio killed 9 people in less than a minute. The douche-bag in Gilroy drove to Nevada to buy his AK to avoid California back ground checks. The cock sucker in Las Vegas had an unbelievable arsenal. Those poor kids at Sandy Hook were the age my daughter is now and the dickhead got his gun from his mom (and killed her). Sadly, I'm to the point where the high caliber weapons need to be banned and confiscated.

  7. Likes fusker, rotarySMP, TheOldCar liked this post
  8. #6
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    California, Central Coast
    Posts
    3,427
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    2169
    Likes (Received)
    1333

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by metal-ica View Post
    As a libertarian I've been one that wants almost no restrictions on guns but it appears as a society we can't handle that responsibility. The asshole in Ohio killed 9 people in less than a minute. The douche-bag in Gilroy drove to Nevada to buy his AK to avoid California back ground checks. The cock sucker in Las Vegas had an unbelievable arsenal. Those poor kids at Sandy Hook were the age my daughter is now and the dickhead got his gun from his mom (and killed her). Sadly, I'm to the point where the high caliber weapons need to be banned and confiscated.
    Please dont quote false flag events as an excuse for more gun laws.

  9. #7
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    West Coast, USA
    Posts
    7,684
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    474
    Likes (Received)
    5108

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob F. View Post
    Please dont quote false flag events as an excuse for more gun laws.
    Curious, Rob, what you mean by "false flag events"? They happened. People died. The shooters were identified. For most their nutcase motivations became clear as police and FBI dug into their past.

  10. Likes Milland liked this post
  11. #8
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Country
    CANADA
    State/Province
    British Columbia
    Posts
    612
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    39
    Likes (Received)
    384

    Default

    In my retirement I stumbled on a book describing the murder rates around the world. This husband wife team went over all the numbers looking for a common reason for murders. The classic accusations are poverty and lack of education. Turns out that the only factor that correlated was the spread of wealth. Locations where there were very rich and very poor and no hope for social mobility had the highest murder rates.
    The writer explained it by suggesting you are in a bar and someone disses you and of course you reach the conclusion to the conflict by shooting the guy. You go to jail and gain status in the prison system and when you get out everyone knows you by your history and now you have elevated yourself in the social structure. So killing someone does not reduce your social status since you are already at the bottom of the pile and have no other way of rising. Just a thought. Killing the Competition: Economic Inequality and Homicide.

  12. #9
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    California, Central Coast
    Posts
    3,427
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    2169
    Likes (Received)
    1333

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteM View Post
    Curious, Rob, what you mean by "false flag events"? They happened. People died. The shooters were identified. For most their nutcase motivations became clear as police and FBI dug into their past.
    I wasnt talking about the recent events. Sandy hook and vegas both of which the official story has more holes than swiss cheese

  13. #10
    Join Date
    Jan 2019
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Arizona
    Posts
    595
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    46
    Likes (Received)
    199

    Default

    Opinions are like ASSHOLES everyone has one,

    Thank god we have a Constitution

  14. Likes Rex TX, empwoer liked this post
  15. #11
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Hillsboro, New Hampshire
    Posts
    7,378
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    1740
    Likes (Received)
    5128

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob F. View Post
    Please dont quote false flag events as an excuse for more gun laws.
    I'm curious that you've accepted the recent events as "legitimate" shootings, but you call Sandy Hook a "false flag". Why, when there are grieving parents of both children and teachers in Newtown, and when you can read the final report on the shooting off the CT government website:

    http://www.shac.ct.gov/SHAC_Final_Report_3-6-2015.pdf

    would you say those deaths are a false flag operation? Under what sort of thinking can you say one was real and one was not?

  16. Likes ratbldr427 liked this post
  17. #12
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Arizona
    Posts
    2,206
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    4
    Likes (Received)
    339

    Default

    First thing we can do is stop referring to "gun" violence. Murder is murder no matter what is used for the killing. Suicides are self-imposed and should not be conflated with murders. Suicides make up about a third of deaths attributed to firearms.

    Some time ago, the Warren Court prohibited incarcerating people for mental health reasons unless they had committed a crime. Unintended consequences? Maybe, maybe not. Too many shrinks see their job as making patients "feel good." Hence, a drug prescription is given. But drugs don't work the same for all patients.

    Taking guns away from people who are not the problem will not stop the problem, but will make it easier for a future dictator to achieve power.

    Personally, I believe it is time to divide the country into socialist and free states and let the socialists do their thing and watch them go down. The alternative will be messy.

  18. #13
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Webster Groves, MO
    Posts
    7,215
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    1810
    Likes (Received)
    3278

    Default

    Hobbyman,
    Interesting. During the middle ages the murder rate was similar to the worst areas now. The rigid hierarchy put the nobility at the top and the peasants often were little more than slaves, in many cases bound to the land. They couldn't even migrate the way many are doing now. An odd correlation, study of English prostitutes found that the majority did not come from the lowest stratum but from the servant class who worked in fine houses and displays of wealth that they themselves could never have.

    GGaskill,
    A study in The Scientific American by a man who was a gun control consultant said that the presence or absence of guns did not greatly change the assault rate. When people want to harm someone, they use whatever is available, rocks, clubs, knives, or whatever. However, the mortality rate took a huge jump when the assault was by firearm because they are so much better killers. To the best of my recollection, the article was after the Stockton, CA school shooting but before the recent ones. Others since then have confirmed it. Guns do not cause murders but they definitely implement them. As I said in the opening, I am very much a supporter of armed citizenry. This is not about disarmament but how to prevent it. If things continue on the present course, I think we will lose AKs and ARs for sure and possibly most self loaders. The anti gun people do have a valid point when you consider the result of similar assaults done with bolt action rifles.

    Bill

  19. Likes fusker, Illinoyance, tim9lives liked this post
  20. #14
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    hope,in
    Posts
    648
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    30
    Likes (Received)
    39

    Default

    'Hence, a drug prescription is given. But drugs don't work the same for all patients.'

    Or if they do not take them.

    'An odd correlation, study of English prostitutes found that the majority did not come from the lowest stratum but from the servant class who worked in fine houses and displays of wealth that they themselves could never have.'

    Do we know the social norms of that era? Even up to the early 1900's, if a woman was jilted, ie proposal was broken, they could be seen as unfit to marry. There were laws for retribution or payment. Some are still on the books. Say 15 years ago, a woman used the existing laws to sue for damages. She did have money. In Thailand, much of the prostitutes come from being jilted.
    It is hard to get changes done, when one or even both sides have a monocular view. After Sandy Hook, the NRA proposed to have mental health issues looked at. So, what was done by the other side? Point that out to anti-gun crowd.

  21. #15
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    Eastern Massachusetts, USA
    Posts
    4,147
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    4453
    Likes (Received)
    4335

    Default

    There are 2 types of mass shooters. The most common are the inner city thugs who will attempt to kill rivals REGARDLESS OF WHO IS STANDING NEARBY. They are not mentally ill but are making a choice based on the world they live in.

    The second type, fortunately much rarer, is the disaffected loner expressing his rage against society. By strictest definition they might not be "mentally ill" but simply evil, cold, and calculating. Far too many of them seem to seek out the weird fame that their acts will insure.

    The first type most of us can do nothing about. The only thing that might reduce the violence is to insist that existing laws are enforced and point out failures of prosecutors and judges in the case of leniency to repeat offenders.

    IMO improved background checks will not be a significant barrier to the second type. In far too many cases they committed acts (such as a kill list and a rape list) that should have been dealt with more severely. Too many dangerous individuals are given break after break that prevents them from being in the system where a background check would catch them. Adding more checks won't fix the problem if there is nothing in the system to find.

    As a society we must figure ways to preserve individual rights and deal with troubled individuals in a compassionate yet vigilant way. Also IMO the effect of popular culture and entertainment has desensitized segments of our society to violence. I myself wish "first person shooter" games were never invented and I don't even like the idea of paintball for civilians. Shooting at other humans, even with paint pellets, violates one of the basic commandments of gun safety and they are after all paintball GUNS.

  22. #16
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    People's Republic
    Posts
    3,003
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    216
    Likes (Received)
    2070

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob F. View Post
    Please dont quote false flag events as an excuse for more gun laws.
    please don't use your lack of grounding in reality as an argument for, well anything

    false flag

    only morons believe that

  23. #17
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    People's Republic
    Posts
    3,003
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    216
    Likes (Received)
    2070

    Default

    Mass shootings are tragic, but are not a huge driver in overall murder rate.


    Gun control works, period

    The 2nd amendment is not a suicide pact

    Push your narrow opinion too far and you will see the pushback.

    Perhaps mass shootings will drive policy to rational gun control, perhaps not.

  24. Likes Curt Brown liked this post
  25. #18
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    Eastern Massachusetts, USA
    Posts
    4,147
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    4453
    Likes (Received)
    4335

    Default

    If gun control works why are there so many shootings in Massachusetts cities?

    Five days, 17 shootings in Boston - The Boston Globe

    2019 murders in Boston | Universal Hub

    Nonfatal shootings in Boston jump by nearly 20% – Boston Herald

    The carnage started on New Year's eve.

    Dorchester Shooting Is State's First Homicide Of 2019 | Boston, MA Patch

    ================================================== ===================================
    Bill,

    If I truly believed that giving up more would drastically reduce the carnage I might consider that a rational path. BUT ... I live in a state that has some of the most stringent laws in the country and murders and other violent attacks have increased rather than decreased. Licensed persons such as myself have to jump through hoops not only to acquire and retain a license but also to comply with the myriad of confusing and often contradictory laws. Our cowboy action shooters can't even buy some of the most desirable single action revolvers despite them being replicas of firearms from the 1800s yet modern semi-auto pistols are legal for sale. We cannot buy new magazines of greater than 10 rounds yet older ones of higher capacity can be readily purchased because they were already in the state before the deadline.

    There are literally hundreds of examples of our mess of laws and the confusion they create. Even the courts sometimes have trouble sorting them out.

  26. Likes DrHook, fusker, empwoer, Jashley73, CNCKrazed liked this post
  27. #19
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Temecula, Ca
    Posts
    2,816
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    1266
    Likes (Received)
    3652

    Default

    last night, in LA some fuck went berserk and stabbed and killed a bunch of people. I'm afraid the problem has nothing to do with guns.

  28. Likes Derek Smalls, 75sv1, dolf, couch, Lharmon and 8 others liked this post
  29. #20
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Virginia
    Posts
    26,861
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    7561
    Likes (Received)
    8408

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by GGaskill View Post
    Personally, I believe it is time to divide the country into socialist and free states and let the socialists do their thing and watch them go down. The alternative will be messy.
    Wisest point made yet - "politics" quite aside.

    I'm even OK if the looter-culture manages to NOT "go down". So long as they have to do "whatever" they do to sink, swim, or prosper on their own resources, and within their own borders. Live off their own watersheds, too, California-are-you-listening?

    Our Federal Republic WAS designed to support those sorts of differences, after all.
    Even secession was provided for. The CSA just got impatient and failed to follow the prescribed form.

    Impatience. There's another thing. "Instant gratification" is awfully expensive.

    Present-day, think Switzerland as a working example of a better way. Four official languages, two official religions (historically) plus a de facto fifth language.

    Or the EU. Crippling themselves, but at least with bonds rather than bombs.

    Even LATAM, taking the long view, their exit from under several Colonial controllers, to present day major differences.

    India is another:

    United under the British Raj, then splitting-off its Eastern and Western extremes to East Pakistan (now Bangladesh), and West Pakistan, now just Pakistan.

    Back to the US.

    Latest round of secession seems to be already well underway, both de facto and de jure, anyway - "paperwork" or no - taking behaviour of California and New York.

    That said, is it "States"?

    Or "City States"?

    Chicago is not all of Illinois. Metro NYC is not all of New York. Is all of California akin to a bowl of Bircher Muesli? Or just the densest parts of it? Or even the most densely POPULATED parts of it?

    Perhaps "WEST BY GOD... Virginia" may show how that can work?

    Interesting times....

    Don't suppose anybody minds ever' damned one of the devolution or secession examples, all-hands ended up worse-off?

    Might be worth it, even so.

  30. Likes partsproduction liked this post

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •