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  1. #181
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    As long as Google, You Tube, the government and the media continue to silence criticism and destroy evidence, I will bet my money on any conspiracy theory.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurt Learning View Post
    As long as Google, You Tube, the government and the media continue to silence criticism and destroy evidence, I will bet my money on any conspiracy theory.
    No Fine WAAAY!

    Just buy more tools and s**t off eBay and go get laid now and then.

    Same gamble, either one. But both come good more often and nobody has to die.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PeteM View Post
    I suppose women might be one hope to restore a balance??

    Like 9100, I'm a long time gun owner, NRA trained as a kid. And like many here I see our unreasonably high (compared to most other first world nations) gun death rate as a combination of things:

    1) The glorification of violence as a manly art of problem solving. Far too many of our media and games feature Rambo-like characters. A couple weeks ago a kid won $3 million for being best at a computer game. "Cool," I thought. Then I learned the "plot" of Fortnight was that 100 people got dropped on an island and the "winner's" job was to kill the other 99. Our culture? Heaven forbid our kids see a naked body of the opposite sex, but mayhem is OK. Most every reality TV show has as its plot everyone competing to be the last one left on the island, in the big house, not fired.

    2) People just generally pissed off - made worse by our media and politics. Some not just pissed off, but also mentally unstable. Most of the mass shooters (demographically most male, white, young,) are pretty much losers, but see themselves in role #1 (glorified dudes with guns). Some are "incels" - involuntary celibates -- already branded losers by most every woman they've met.

    3) The ready availability of guns most anyone can use to get off dozens of shots in whatever hissy fit motivates them to plan mass murder.

    Combine social approval, pissed off nut jobs, and too easy availability of guns -- and you get our surge in gun violence. There's no foolproof way to stop this, but it would make sense to work on all three fronts to restore some sense of sanity and civility.

    Could be we need a modern Lysistrata?? Making Rambo wanna-be's losers . . . and then losers again. Might take a long while to get angry young losers out of the gene pool -- but some might get the message sooner?
    1) I heard a US Army psychologist on the radio speaking about that subject. He said that at one time they trained riflemen on bullseye targets. They got good at hitting concentric circles but were reluctant to shoot at enemy soldiers and often during the Korean war would refuse to fire unless there was an officer standing over them. Then they changed to pop up targets, training men to point and shoot. While the army trains soldiers carefully, TV games teach children that the way to solve a problem is the same, point and shoot. He was very concerned and subsequent events have shown that his concern was well founded.

    2) I barely made the admission age when I started school. If my birthday had been a couple of weeks later, I would have had to wait a year. An unintended result was that I was usually the youngest kid in the class and one of the smallest. I spent kindergarten and grades 1, 2 and 3 in a school with no playground supervision, meaning that the primary goal during recess was avoiding getting beat up. Fortunately I had a proper family for a support group and when things became totally unbearable, my parents moved me to a private school, a serious burden for them but like breaking out of an overcast into a sunlit sky for me. My trauma was trivial compared to what the children of drug addicts and gangbangers endure, but when you are that age with nothing to compare to, your problems are serious. I never came close to shooting up a school but I have no difficulty seeing why someone might do it. Read the book "All God's Children" and wonder how Willy Bosket could be anything but a violent criminal.

    3) You can rant all you want about your rights and the fact still remains that access to guns for people in that condition means more deaths.

    Do we need a Lysistrata? We have plenty of Erostrati, AKA Herostrati, so why not? Actually, there was one in one of the central African countries that had a perpetual civil war. Unfortunately, I don't remember the country's name right now. The women got fed up with it and announced "No dinner and no sex until you come to an agreement." Another country picked up the bill to keep the generals in a luxury hotel while they negotiated, which dragged on and on. Finally the wives realized that as long as they could live the good life instead of camping in the jungle, the meeting would never end so they staged another strike and finally got a settlement.

    Erostratus was a Greek citizen of Ephesus who wanted to be famous but had no notable skills, so he burned down the temple of Artemis. The Ephesians executed him and made a law prohibiting anyone from speaking or writing his name, but it was preserved somewhere. As Jean Paul Sartre said, "Do you remember the name of the architect who built the temple?"

    Arthur Bremer wanted to become famous by killing a famous person. At first he was going to shoot Richard Nixon but then changed to George Wallace. When he did, he stood calmly waiting to be arrested, smiling, no doubt because he would now be famous. Don't judge him too harshly. Anyone who wanted to shoot Nixon can't be all bad.

    Bill

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    Just as a side note, I am disappointed that the moderators allow such rude behavior and profane language.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurt Learning View Post
    Just as a side note, I am disappointed that the moderators allow such rude behavior and profane language.
    i remember trying to collect snowflakes and inspect them for their varied forms once I read that no two were ever exactly alike.

    Just breathing on them when trying to get a closer look at their differences caused them to melt into a messy drip of water.

    Gave up the business of worrying about snowflakes as a bad job and moved on to more enduring matters.



    Moderator and I may have gone to different schools together?

    Winter of 1949-50, I think it was.

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    I really don't like even weighing my opinion on guns... but tying it to video games is absurd. Video games are played the world over. Japan is a HUGE gaming culture, how many gun related mass shootings/murders and such happen there? Not as many as the US for sure. Our (the U.S. IMO) problem is just society -

    Everyone is special and deserves a trophy for "competing". Don't get that trophy, well the world has fuc*ed you and now 'deserves' "justice"!

    Mental health is still a stigma in 2019 and people don't get the help they need. Ins companies don't cover mental health in alot of instances, and the price of care just makes it near impossible to 'foot the bill' if you even think you might want to talk to someone or seek treatment....

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    First of all, the idea of women stopping mass shootings by denying sex will not work because so many of these shooters are "incels" i.e. Involuntary Celibates. Part of the reason is because most of them view women as whores and are incapable of having a normal relationship. Ironically none of them seem to consider hiring an actual whore to end their celibacy. My guess is that in addition to playing violent "fantasy revenge" games and venting on online boards that most of them are probably also heavy users of porn.

    In addition to hating women most of them seem to hate successful males and anyone they think has a better life than them. Their rage is against society itself.

    Now some important points:

    Millions of people own firearms and don't commit these acts.

    Millions of people are considered oddballs and don't commit these acts.

    Millions of people play violent video games and don't commit these acts.

    Millions of people watch violent entertainment and don't commit these acts.

    Millions of people are on antidepressants and don't commit these acts.

    Millions of people are unhappy with their sex lives and don't commit these acts.

    Unfortunately for some people all of the above create a "perfect storm" leading to these horrific acts. Fortunately, as others have noted, they are extremely rare.

    I am a realist. I accept that my life could end anytime I am out and about. As a realist, I also recognize which threats have the highest probability.

    Other than medical issues/medical mistakes my greatest threat is being killed by a vehicle, either in a crash or as a pedestrian. I have nearly been run over in crosswalks several times, twice by speeding bicycles that blew through red lights. In every case I was crossing legally under a crossing signal.

    I can be violently assaulted by an angry or crazy person. A man was stabbed by a violent schizophrenic not that long ago in an area I frequent. The attacker doesn't even need to be armed as striking one's head against pavement can be fatal.

    I can be crushed by a falling tree branch. This is a more realistic possibility than many of you probably imagine. Many of our trees are old and brittle and drop branches frequently. I have had one fall just ahead of where I was walking. Had I been there seconds earlier ... ?

    I don't live in fear of mass shootings. My major concern in crowds is being crushed if something spooks the herd. This has happened to others on many occasions. Recently people in New York City panicked when a motorcycle backfired.


    I want to close with one more thought:

    While many of the gun control proposals seek to limit access to firearms for troubled people, others seek to ban AND CONFISCATE entire classes of firearms. In doing so you are actually saying that ALL current gun owners are potential mass murderers! I and others take this as a personal insult and lose respect for you and your opinions.

    In our view you trust government too much and ordinary people too little, a viewpoint that can never be reconciled with ours.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    ... others seek to ban AND CONFISCATE entire classes of firearms. In doing so you are actually saying that ALL current gun owners are potential mass murderers! I and others take this as a personal insult and lose respect for you and your opinions.

    In our view you trust government too much and ordinary people too little, a viewpoint that can never be reconciled with ours.
    Well... it is also a ludicrous fantasy to think it could be DONE.

    More law enforcement agencies, nationwide, than not are on the side of an armed citizenry They KNOW FIRSTHAND who the people are, and that they respect and support - even now and then assist - their police forces.

    No US military is ever going to go out on a mission to disarm law-abiding citizens.

    Whom does that leave?

    Oh. The very snowflakes WE have been helping protect the lives and safety of. The unarmed ones. Come knocking at the door to sweep up firearms? With what? Pitchforks, pick handles and pine-knot torches?

    Dreamers?

    Doesn't sound like any more workable as to strategy OR tactics to me than mice trying to install a 12V battery and a backup warning beeper up a Tiger's arse.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob F. View Post
    Oklahoma federal building has been repeatedly mentioned throughout the thread. Here is a respected general trying to save the building from demolition since the damage done could not have all been from a fetilizer bomb in a truck, had to demolition charges placed in key structural locations.
    The Oklahoma Bombing - Red Flags From an Expert - General Partin
    I met a guy who knew a guy who claimed that WWII was a hoax, all fake inflatable tanks


    if you believe this stuff please seek professional help,

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    Quote Originally Posted by gustafson View Post
    I met a guy who knew a guy who claimed that WWII was a hoax, all fake inflatable tanks
    Nah. That's a damned conspiracy theory. It was actually done with scale models. I seen it in a movie and caught-on right away they were so cheesy.



    As to the Murrah building? No idea if there was more to the case than the public was told or not. USA has folks who handle that stuff. Simply not my rice-bowl.

    FBI "et al" loong had a policy of classifying the MANY terrorist attacks on US soil as plain-old-whichever CRIME that they (also) were. There's a compendium of those. Around 130 of them were de-classified as at the time the book was published.

    None were formally "labeled" as terrorist acts.

    The goal was to deny publicity/martyrdom or recognize any legitimacy to a so-called "political cause", or to class non-state actors as any sort of "military" (ex: Symbionese Liberation Army) rather than common criminals (serial bank robbers, mostly, plus one notorious kidnapping / brainwashing-or-maybe-not in that case).

    Made a certain amount of sense, toning-down the sensationalism.

    Might still make sense, recent events showing the blood lust fired-up to raise funds for so many politicians.

    Taking away the playtoys of a bloodthirsty media - who of course ARE bloodthirsty because they have no OTHER greedy AUDIENCE than those thirsting after a constant steam of cheap thrills - seems a good idea to me.

    China has been doing it since Big Bang to not upset nor inflame their populace.

    Or "that's their story and they are sticking to it" anyway.

    They have, after all, over 150 government-recognized ethnicities speaking over fifty local language dialects within their borders. Not all of them actually trust each other, nor WANT to get along well, given they were once separate countries and tribes at war with each other over a rather longer than average recorded history.

    Hong Kong & Guangdong's people still call themselves "Tang Ren" people of the Tang Dynasty (618-907 AD) - and have a challenging phrase as means "Out with the Ming, restore the Tang".

    Hell of it is, Ming was 1368 to 1644, so there had already been a gap of over 400 years between them, plus nearly another 400 years since!

    Long memories. Long feuds. Current with today's news or otherwise

    Go figure.

  14. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post

    I want to close with one more thought:

    While many of the gun control proposals seek to limit access to firearms for troubled people, others seek to ban AND CONFISCATE entire classes of firearms. In doing so you are actually saying that ALL current gun owners are potential mass murderers! I and others take this as a personal insult and lose respect for you and your opinions.

    In our view you trust government too much and ordinary people too little, a viewpoint that can never be reconciled with ours.
    I think you are misunderstanding a couple of things here. Laws on the books are tools, like tools in the drawer, you may never use them. Take for example the current situation. If the El Paso shooter uttered one Islamic phrase he could be charged with terrorism in 2 new york second, but there is no law on the books for white supremacy terrorism, so the only tool left is hate crime. Having laws that govern guns allows the law more flexibility, the gun does not make you a mass murderer, but if you used that particular gun, your mass murderer status is elevated and you fall into a different sentencing guideline. For example, in MD texting while driving is illegal but you cannot get pulled over for it, On the other hand, if you get into an accident, and your phone record shows that you texted during the accident, it aggravates your sentence. In essence, your ownership of a class of guns becomes a liability, not a violation. Most places where laws like that are enacted offer buyback programs. If you do not want the liability remit the gun.

    The whole premise of the discussion was sensible gun laws.

    dee
    ;-D

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    Quote Originally Posted by 9100 View Post
    As Sledge Hammer said, "Guns don't kill people, bullets kill people.

    Re the 2nd, I downloaded the entire Heller decision and read every word, including the dissenters. For those not familiar with it, Heller was a career Capitol Policeman, the folks who guard everyone except the president who is guarded by treasury agents. The federal government PAID him to carry a gun for his entire career. When he retired, he applied to the DC authorities to get a gun to keep in his house and was denied. The case went to the US Supreme Court, who for once did the right thing and upheld his right to home defense.

    There were dissenters and one point was that the 2nd was the right of states to have a militia. Remember that the people very well understood the abuse of power and were determined that it wouldn't happen again. I agree with the view that the 2nd was intended primarily for that purpose, but I also feel that it reaffirmed our basic overall right to self defense. A statement that you should not steal gold from me contains the subset that you should not steal.

    ...............


    Back to the original question, there are a lot of guns getting into the hands of people such as convicted felons we don't want to have them. Someone is supplying them. There has been a lot of discussion about gun control laws, but remember that we follow behavior patterns that are not written in laws all the time. Sometimes voting with your feet is more effective than legislation. Can we find these sources and do something about them?


    Bill
    The way the second is written, the courts have limited choices. Either take the literal text or rely on the federalist papers. and those come to opposing opinions. There is little middle ground. But the court has already limited firearm ownership to bearable arms (Caetano v. Massachusetts), so in essence, if you cannot carry it you cannot own it . Wonder if that makes shoulder-fired RPGs legal . but as you pointed out the Heller case was about the right to self-defense. RPGs are a bit overkill.

    ................

    The more guns in circulation the easier it is to get a gun, guns are like currency to a lot of people in the shade. Do you remember what happened in the EU when they went single currency, there was an ungodly amount of dark money that did not get converted, Making certain weapons illegal to sell or use in crime would not have the same effect, but it would give law enforcement new tools combatting violence and terror.
    dee
    ;-D

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    Quote Originally Posted by dcsipo View Post
    In essence, your ownership of a class of guns becomes a liability, not a violation. Most places where laws like that are enacted offer buyback programs. If you do not want the liability remit the gun.

    The whole premise of the discussion was sensible gun laws.

    dee
    ;-D
    I'd prefer to see sensible THREAT REDUCTION laws, but even so - not just "sensible" to a clerk who tracks unrelated details rather than relevant actions.

    Your insurance and liability concept is useless as to real-world enforcement efforts on anyone of those actually involved. They only burden the bystanders.

    I don't THINK you actually missed it, but every one of these nutcase arseholes has to have broken MANY laws, murder not the least.

    The point, here, is whether or not there are WORKABLE means to intercept that. To prevent it.

    Contracts in-place to bill inch-hoorance firms of bystanders after-the-fact of the deaths caused by others - then claim to have SOLVED that tragedy - same as we prevented auto accidents with no-fault laws so insurance pays for their carnage AFTER the death and damage has already taken place are no more than playing with feel-righteous statistics rather than preserving lives.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dcsipo View Post
    I think you are misunderstanding a couple of things here. Laws on the books are tools, like tools in the drawer, you may never use them. Take for example the current situation. If the El Paso shooter uttered one Islamic phrase he could be charged with terrorism in 2 new york second, but there is no law on the books for white supremacy terrorism, so the only tool left is hate crime. Having laws that govern guns allows the law more flexibility, the gun does not make you a mass murderer, but if you used that particular gun, your mass murderer status is elevated and you fall into a different sentencing guideline. For example, in MD texting while driving is illegal but you cannot get pulled over for it, On the other hand, if you get into an accident, and your phone record shows that you texted during the accident, it aggravates your sentence. In essence, your ownership of a class of guns becomes a liability, not a violation. Most places where laws like that are enacted offer buyback programs. If you do not want the liability remit the gun.

    The whole premise of the discussion was sensible gun laws.

    dee
    ;-D
    This all goes back to the fact that laws prevent NOTHING. Laws only serve as a structure for retribution from the ruling mob.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wp6529 View Post
    This all goes back to the fact that laws prevent NOTHING. Laws only serve as a structure for retribution from the ruling mob.
    Exactly. Lawsters and courts do not hide it:

    We do not control events nor prevent harm. We only allocate the blame.
    By definition, that's after the fact, and too damned late for the dead.

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    I am thinking that carry of hand gun or long should have/require the gun to be cased or holstered in non gun use places.
    Inappropriate use of a firearm...as decided by a cop would be fine..so he (the cop) might give a warning, or arrest, what ever needed. Likely that is the law in some/many places.
    I would like to see deputies trained. Guys/gals who can carry an most any place after trained to address as situation when needed...likely many would even pay the costs for training..Yes with it still legal for anyone to address a problem situation, with he/she having a legal gun.
    I don't carry but with a rise in crazy acts may have to start doing so.

    But the guy today walking into a Walmart with armor and a long gun might have been shot by someone not trained..Good a fire fighter took action and did the right thing.

    I keep wondering how can some people be so stupid...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milland View Post
    And what are your thoughts when young children are murdered in classrooms or at the mall?
    My thoughts? Why are teachers not armed? Why do the security personnel chicken out and refuse to confront the perps? Why does it take, sometimes, so long for the police to show up? I am of the school of thought of unrestricted ownership of any and all methods to protect myself and my loved ones and my neighbors and fellow citizens from bodily harm of any kind. And I would hope others would do the same for me. If people can't see that self defense is the most important right, then there is no helping those people. You're already a sheep and should just go live in a commune. Basic human rights, to NOT be subjugated by another human being in any way whatsoever. How hard is that? How much respect do you have for yourself if you give up those rights for a sense of false security. Relying on the government? For everything? Believing the government? On every issue? Please! Save me the bullshit. My daughter just purchased her first conceal handgun and I applauded her. She is in good hands since her husband is ex-military police and is now a Customs and Border agent working the El Paso border crossing. And my 2 grand daughters are being taught a healthy respect for firearms, just as I did when I was 12.
    M

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    Quote Originally Posted by michiganbuck View Post
    I am thinking that carry of hand gun or long should have/require the gun to be cased or holstered in non gun use places.
    Already that way, most jurisdictions. Head for a place where alcohol is sold, the CCW sidearm goes into a safe in the pickup truck, FIRST, for one example.

    Virginia is an "open carry" state as well, but same again. Prohibited venue? No firearm enters.

    Mind -we are back to square ONE.

    Only the law-abiding abide the law, or any other law.

    All the nutcases in the sad history had already violated laws. Several of them, usually.

    "We need a(nother) Law!!" just ups the number of counts a prosecutor can file IF the perp survives. And - too late - always after the deaths.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milland View Post
    I read #142, and had to step away from the computer before I put my fist through the screen. This "man" is in my permanent ignore file. There is nothing that a conspiracist can offer except his own brand of psychotic destruction.

    I want nothing to do with such a person.
    Assuming I made the post 142 you are referring to (Sometimes a post is deleted by the author), what did I say? Everything I mentioned is part of the public record. There have been many articles written on the event from different perspectives. My memory of what happened yesterday is not as good anymore, but I am still pretty good with what happened 10 or more years ago.

    If I am the one you are ignoring I guess I will not find out what I did wrong.

    Last time I checked I am still a man, for what that is worth.

    Hope your computer is still intact.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    Already that way, most jurisdictions. Head for a place where alcohol is sold, the CCW sidearm goes into a safe in the pickup truck, FIRST, for one example.

    Virginia is an "open carry" state as well, but same again. Prohibited venue? No firearm enters.

    Mind -we are back to square ONE.

    Only the law-abiding abide the law, or any other law.

    All the nutcases in the sad history had already violated laws. Several of them, usually.

    "We need a(nother) Law!!" just ups the number of counts a prosecutor can file IF the perp survives. And - too late - always after the deaths.
    Agree..but that guy today walking int Walmart..did he know /think he could be shot just carrying or did he foolishly think he could do that...Most hunters and legal users of guns don't pull "doing stupid"..
    Perhaps gun use training should be in every school.

    It would be interesting to know if that guy ever shot the gun in and legal way.

    I have helped train youngster even 3 and 4 year olds gun safety and those kids grow up respecting guns..

    Agree the numbers are not that bad compared to other ways of death ..but it sure would be tough to have your kid or grand kid hurt that way.

    And some bleeding hearts people would cry if you cut down a tree, they would take away guns, knives , screw drivers metal tent stakes, shovels, gas cans......


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